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Just a note, Amazon is not responsible for Seattle's poor decision making when it comes to city planning, the housing crisis and their poor decisions when deali

Just a note, Amazon is not responsible for Seattle's poor decision making when it comes to city planning, the housing crisis and their poor decisions when dealing with (or choosing not to deal with) the homeless situation in Seattle. They have done plenty of horrible things, and the article is totally fair to point those out, but it seems beyond the pale to blame Seattle City council's failings and poor governance on Amazon. As for the roads, Seattle is really three small towns jammed together, so the city planning was a nightmare, then there was a few city corruption scandals, etc etc etc and now the police are told to not enforce vagrancy laws and I think everyone is caught up. None of that has anything to do with Amazon.

pboutros 8y ago
Amazon isn't solely responsible for Seattle's poor city planning (rather, Seattle, Kirkland, Bellevue, Redmond, Tacoma, etc.), but they're certainly responsible for ~50% of the influx of high-paid workers, which has increased housing demand, and that has certainly impacted Seattle.
- mandeepj 8y ago
  you are saying they should not have created this many jobs?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - hkt 8y ago
    There is probably an ideal amount of high paid jobs in a particular area. Too many will push up local property price inflation.
- lenticular 8y ago
  Those are all positive things on their own though. They have only become negatives due to the city's resistance to allowing new housing to be built. The key issue is rent-seeking single-family-home owners using their political power to distort the market.
- robbrit 8y ago
  I'm often skeptical of these claims. In the SF Bay Area I can understand why this might be the case, since there are a lot more big tech companies shelling out huge salaries, but the Seattle area only really has two big ones: Amazon and Microsoft. A little back of the napkin math: I'm going to guess that the number of engineers Amazon has in Seattle will be roughly equal to what they were advertising for their second HQ, around 50k. According to Wikipedia the population of the Seattle metro area is about 3.8 million, so the Amazon engineers represent just 1.3% of that - and those engineers haven't come in a huge wave, they've been trickling in over the near 25 years that Amazon has been in business. A major metro area should be able to handle that kind of shock. There's something more at play than just well-paid tech workers pushing up the housing prices. A combination of low interest rates and restrictive housing rules would have a much bigger impact.
  - pboutros 8y ago
    I agree with the back of the napkin math -- but remember, it isn't 1.3% added to the city's population, it's 1.3% added to the part of the city's population that is looking to move, mostly in the past decade, with a focus (in Amazon's case) on living near downtown. It's proportionally much larger, and they're coming in at the higher end of the income strata. Add that again, but for Microsoft, and then the ecosystem of SIs / ISVs / startups around it, and suddenly you have Seattle's housing crisis.
- stochastic_monk 8y ago
  I lived in Seattle for a couple years during the boom. Housing costs now are more than double what they were. I’d blame Amazon for the massive influx of workers and traffic actually becoming a nightmare.
ahoy 8y ago
Surely a company as rich and powerful as amazon has it's say in local government, no?
FmrAMZN_TA 8y ago
<highly biased take coming> Citation(s) needed. They specifically work (publicly and privately) to undermine local taxes, enforce non-competes/NDAs, capital gains, income taxes, etc. Then they do small investments like Mary's Place and point at it as being big community efforts. In fact, one can argue that it's Amazon's extensive work behind the scenes to that causes many contorted decisions that the city council and others make. MSFT is investing $500M in Seattle (many through loans, but $25M is outright grants). Where's Amazon's similar commitment?
emptysongglass 8y ago
I suspect there must be a secret majority of capitalist-apologists lurking on Hacker News because every time I open a thread, the top comment is defending one of these corporations. I grew up and lived in Seattle. I left because of Amazon. My rent spiked, Capital Hill's cultural landscape that raised me was bought out and appropriated for the new influx of tech workers who couldn't care or know the musical miracle of what they had plundered. I live and breathe computing systems and I want less of me wherever I go. Our effect when we enter local ecologies is stultifying, ruining, yet is celebrated as progress by some nebulous measure none of us can touch or taste or feel except for the wealthy. With Amazon's entrance came foreign Chinese investment to buy out family run businesses like Mama's Mexican Kitchen. My aunt worked at Mama's for more than a decade. She was a fixture: articles were written up on her special brand of caustic wit she brought to every table. The Chinese investors bought out the whole block to convert Mama's and other neighboring cultural waystations into soulless high rises for the likes of me.
- throwaway98121 8y ago
  Those Chinese investors didn’t do anything illegal did they? Sounds like your beef should be with your own city or towns council or state government for allowing this to happen. The Chinese investors saw an opportunity and took advantage. What blows my mind are all the folks who point at corporations and capitalism in general as being inherently “bad” and are quick to point out the effects of transplants from other countries or cities moving to their area for economic opportunity. Then these same folks also are in favor of liberal immigration policies. The NIMBY mentality is hypocritical. You left Seattle but others moved in to take your place. I don’t see a negative here other than you’re upset that others are successful. You feel like you are entitled to live in Seattle, and I disagree. You moved out but Rahul who came from Hyderabad has a much better quality of life in Seattle. It sucks for you, but is it inherently bad for society?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    The whole idea of “capitalism is bad” while the same person enjoys the fruit of capitalism is hypocritical. It’s about like HN posters supporting “tax the rich” and aren’t self aware enough to know that if they have over $130K year of household income, they are doing better than 80% of the population and they are the statistical “rich”. https://dqydj.com/united-states-household-income-brackets-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/united-states-household-income-brackets-pe...

pboutros 8y ago

Amazon isn't solely responsible for Seattle's poor city planning (rather, Seattle, Kirkland, Bellevue, Redmond, Tacoma, etc.), but they're certainly responsible for ~50% of the influx of high-paid workers, which has increased housing demand, and that has certainly impacted Seattle.

mandeepj 8y ago
you are saying they should not have created this many jobs?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- hkt 8y ago
  There is probably an ideal amount of high paid jobs in a particular area. Too many will push up local property price inflation.
lenticular 8y ago
Those are all positive things on their own though. They have only become negatives due to the city's resistance to allowing new housing to be built. The key issue is rent-seeking single-family-home owners using their political power to distort the market.
robbrit 8y ago
I'm often skeptical of these claims. In the SF Bay Area I can understand why this might be the case, since there are a lot more big tech companies shelling out huge salaries, but the Seattle area only really has two big ones: Amazon and Microsoft. A little back of the napkin math: I'm going to guess that the number of engineers Amazon has in Seattle will be roughly equal to what they were advertising for their second HQ, around 50k. According to Wikipedia the population of the Seattle metro area is about 3.8 million, so the Amazon engineers represent just 1.3% of that - and those engineers haven't come in a huge wave, they've been trickling in over the near 25 years that Amazon has been in business. A major metro area should be able to handle that kind of shock. There's something more at play than just well-paid tech workers pushing up the housing prices. A combination of low interest rates and restrictive housing rules would have a much bigger impact.
- pboutros 8y ago
  I agree with the back of the napkin math -- but remember, it isn't 1.3% added to the city's population, it's 1.3% added to the part of the city's population that is looking to move, mostly in the past decade, with a focus (in Amazon's case) on living near downtown. It's proportionally much larger, and they're coming in at the higher end of the income strata. Add that again, but for Microsoft, and then the ecosystem of SIs / ISVs / startups around it, and suddenly you have Seattle's housing crisis.
stochastic_monk 8y ago
I lived in Seattle for a couple years during the boom. Housing costs now are more than double what they were. I’d blame Amazon for the massive influx of workers and traffic actually becoming a nightmare.

ahoy 8y ago

Surely a company as rich and powerful as amazon has it's say in local government, no?

FmrAMZN_TA 8y ago

<highly biased take coming> Citation(s) needed. They specifically work (publicly and privately) to undermine local taxes, enforce non-competes/NDAs, capital gains, income taxes, etc. Then they do small investments like Mary's Place and point at it as being big community efforts. In fact, one can argue that it's Amazon's extensive work behind the scenes to that causes many contorted decisions that the city council and others make. MSFT is investing $500M in Seattle (many through loans, but $25M is outright grants). Where's Amazon's similar commitment?

emptysongglass 8y ago

I suspect there must be a secret majority of capitalist-apologists lurking on Hacker News because every time I open a thread, the top comment is defending one of these corporations. I grew up and lived in Seattle. I left because of Amazon. My rent spiked, Capital Hill's cultural landscape that raised me was bought out and appropriated for the new influx of tech workers who couldn't care or know the musical miracle of what they had plundered. I live and breathe computing systems and I want less of me wherever I go. Our effect when we enter local ecologies is stultifying, ruining, yet is celebrated as progress by some nebulous measure none of us can touch or taste or feel except for the wealthy. With Amazon's entrance came foreign Chinese investment to buy out family run businesses like Mama's Mexican Kitchen. My aunt worked at Mama's for more than a decade. She was a fixture: articles were written up on her special brand of caustic wit she brought to every table. The Chinese investors bought out the whole block to convert Mama's and other neighboring cultural waystations into soulless high rises for the likes of me.

throwaway98121 8y ago
Those Chinese investors didn’t do anything illegal did they? Sounds like your beef should be with your own city or towns council or state government for allowing this to happen. The Chinese investors saw an opportunity and took advantage. What blows my mind are all the folks who point at corporations and capitalism in general as being inherently “bad” and are quick to point out the effects of transplants from other countries or cities moving to their area for economic opportunity. Then these same folks also are in favor of liberal immigration policies. The NIMBY mentality is hypocritical. You left Seattle but others moved in to take your place. I don’t see a negative here other than you’re upset that others are successful. You feel like you are entitled to live in Seattle, and I disagree. You moved out but Rahul who came from Hyderabad has a much better quality of life in Seattle. It sucks for you, but is it inherently bad for society?
- scarface74 8y ago
  The whole idea of “capitalism is bad” while the same person enjoys the fruit of capitalism is hypocritical. It’s about like HN posters supporting “tax the rich” and aren’t self aware enough to know that if they have over $130K year of household income, they are doing better than 80% of the population and they are the statistical “rich”. https://dqydj.com/united-states-household-income-brackets-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/united-states-household-income-brackets-pe...