4 ms·

Maybe it's just me but unless I'm really blind, it seems to me that the British ruling class is doing everything it possibly can to avoid a Brexit, including sa

Maybe it's just me but unless I'm really blind, it seems to me that the British ruling class is doing everything it possibly can to avoid a Brexit, including sabotaging democracy, and generally grasping at straws. They're also clearly expecting to lose a lot of money in the process. The support for cutting out the EU is very much carried by the worker class, and this seems to be done very much in open conflict with the ruling class. Even most of the conservative

drcongo 8y ago
I think there's probably quite a lot you're missing, which is not a criticism because there's simply so much at play with Brexit. The ruling classes, or more accurately a particular branch of it, are very much driving Brexit as they're disaster capitalists - they know it's going to cause misery to millions of people, but they stand to personally profit hugely from it. Owners of tabloid newspapers have for years been fuelling the anger that has led to the working classes backing the idea. Our newspapers regularly run stories, that are out and out false, about immigration, EU bureaucracy, migration etc. It's straight up propaganda as a long game designed to enrich a few people.
- candiodari 8y ago
  "Owners of tabloid newspapers" ... you and I have very different ideas from who and what the British ruling class are. Might I suggest you put yourself through another test. Get a job at the local McDonalds (or a cleaner, or driver, or ...). Look at the conditions, look who takes the jobs and why. Because it will make it VERY obvious what needs to change, and why exiting the EU is seen as a viable option. I understand why you say that Brexit won't help with that (although I do think it might make it possible to prevent things from deteriorating further). And I even agree with that assessment, you see, but at least take a look at the other side of the argument from the perspective of the other side of the argument.
  - drcongo 8y ago
    It would appear we _do_ have different ideas about who the ruling classes are, I think it’s those who are actually pulling the strings. Your “get a job at McDonalds” bit reads like the same racist arguments against immigration that are largely parroted by many leave voters, a thinly veiled “foreigners are taking our jobs” - the reality is that immigration is a net benefit to the economy and this country is going to struggle without it. The NHS is already hitting problems, our universities, who rely on foreign students paying much more in fees, are seeing a potentially catastrophic decline in enrolments (anecdata). I totally understand the other side of the argument, the problem is that it’s based on lies they’ve been fed by those who stand to profit. The groundswell of anger that brought about the leave vote was orchestrated by exactly those who I’m calling the ruling classes - they gave the disenfranchised someone to punch down at.
    - candiodari 8y ago
      > the reality is that immigration is a net benefit to the economy and this country is going to struggle without it As I said I understand and even agree with this argument. Now find a way to make it a benefit, not a cost, to those people (most of whom are immigrants, and yes, you read that right: immigrants are mostly pro-Brexit. This will make a lot of sense once you think about it for 10 minutes), and very little of the Brexit fervor will remain. Fact of the matter is these people want Brexit because their situation won't improve due to immigration. And let's be honest. They're right.
      - drcongo 8y ago
        If you don’t understand how something that is a net benefit to the economy improves the lives of everyone who is a part of that economy then I’m not sure I can help you.
        candiodari 8y ago
        Spoken as a true economic academic, well, an Austrian one. But no worries. I can help you: you have seen your house, right ? The university building ? At the front, there's a door. Walk through and don't walk through again until you've talked to 10 young people working there about their lives. Go into the country and talk to anyone. Note how rapidly anecdotal evidence builds up that seems to contradict your basic claim here ?

drcongo 8y ago

I think there's probably quite a lot you're missing, which is not a criticism because there's simply so much at play with Brexit. The ruling classes, or more accurately a particular branch of it, are very much driving Brexit as they're disaster capitalists - they know it's going to cause misery to millions of people, but they stand to personally profit hugely from it. Owners of tabloid newspapers have for years been fuelling the anger that has led to the working classes backing the idea. Our newspapers regularly run stories, that are out and out false, about immigration, EU bureaucracy, migration etc. It's straight up propaganda as a long game designed to enrich a few people.

candiodari 8y ago
"Owners of tabloid newspapers" ... you and I have very different ideas from who and what the British ruling class are. Might I suggest you put yourself through another test. Get a job at the local McDonalds (or a cleaner, or driver, or ...). Look at the conditions, look who takes the jobs and why. Because it will make it VERY obvious what needs to change, and why exiting the EU is seen as a viable option. I understand why you say that Brexit won't help with that (although I do think it might make it possible to prevent things from deteriorating further). And I even agree with that assessment, you see, but at least take a look at the other side of the argument from the perspective of the other side of the argument.
- drcongo 8y ago
  It would appear we _do_ have different ideas about who the ruling classes are, I think it’s those who are actually pulling the strings. Your “get a job at McDonalds” bit reads like the same racist arguments against immigration that are largely parroted by many leave voters, a thinly veiled “foreigners are taking our jobs” - the reality is that immigration is a net benefit to the economy and this country is going to struggle without it. The NHS is already hitting problems, our universities, who rely on foreign students paying much more in fees, are seeing a potentially catastrophic decline in enrolments (anecdata). I totally understand the other side of the argument, the problem is that it’s based on lies they’ve been fed by those who stand to profit. The groundswell of anger that brought about the leave vote was orchestrated by exactly those who I’m calling the ruling classes - they gave the disenfranchised someone to punch down at.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    > the reality is that immigration is a net benefit to the economy and this country is going to struggle without it As I said I understand and even agree with this argument. Now find a way to make it a benefit, not a cost, to those people (most of whom are immigrants, and yes, you read that right: immigrants are mostly pro-Brexit. This will make a lot of sense once you think about it for 10 minutes), and very little of the Brexit fervor will remain. Fact of the matter is these people want Brexit because their situation won't improve due to immigration. And let's be honest. They're right.
    - drcongo 8y ago
      If you don’t understand how something that is a net benefit to the economy improves the lives of everyone who is a part of that economy then I’m not sure I can help you.
      - candiodari 8y ago
        Spoken as a true economic academic, well, an Austrian one. But no worries. I can help you: you have seen your house, right ? The university building ? At the front, there's a door. Walk through and don't walk through again until you've talked to 10 young people working there about their lives. Go into the country and talk to anyone. Note how rapidly anecdotal evidence builds up that seems to contradict your basic claim here ?