4 ms·

The most popular selling electric car is a Nissan leaf, has been on the market for 8 years, and it costs half of a model 3 (ignoring specs)

joenathanone 8y ago
I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but the top selling electric car is the Tesla Model 3. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-top-5-most-popular-cars/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-top-5-most-popular-ca... https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/09/tesla-model-3-becomes-1-best-selling-car-in-the-us/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/09/tesla-model-3-becomes-1...
- radiorental 8y ago
  You are aware there a whole bunch of other parts of the planet? Total worldwide sales of the leaf are north of 400,000 units. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf "Global sales totaled over 380,000 Leafs by December 2018, making the Leaf the world's all-time best-selling highway-capable electric car."
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    I've been looking for a while: Can you furnish a link for worldwide sales of Leafs for 2018 (or at least several months). I've seen several estimates of 7K per month, which would be 84K units, but no actual figures.
    - radiorental 8y ago
      Updated my parent comment. I took my numbers from wikipedia. My understanding is that Leaf sales have declined as better cars have come on the market. That said, I was providing a counterpoint to the OP's statement that Japanese manufacturers weren't doing anything, when the facts clearly indicate otherwise.
      - purple_ducks 8y ago
        Your fact is that a (singular) Japanese manufacturer made an electric car which was ~popular. Even if it was the most popular selling electric car, it's dwarfed by sales of every other type of car (on every continent). Despite being on sale for ~8 years in Europe, it's still a novelty seeing one on the road. The Leaf wasn't the kick up the arse that other manufacturers needed, the Tesla 3 arguably was. This is in spite of Europe being a massive consumer of Japanese cars in general(Nissan & Toyota in particular). Assuming Tesla 3 doesn't get down to sub €35k price in the next year, Hynudai Kona seems like it will be the best selling EV in Europe in 2019 (provided the end dealers don't mess it up) Some other Japanese manufacturers: Toyota, Honda, Daihatsu, Suzuki, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Isuzu Barring Toyota who at least made some effort with the Prius. What have the rest of those industry players done for EV adoption/advancement? Nothing. Some (even in 2019) still haven't made inroads into EV.
        mikekchar 8y ago
        As I live in Japan, I can help you with this. Mitsubishi has an electric vehicle and also partners with Nissan to maintain the charging infrastructure. Here's a Wikipedia link to Mitsubishi's vehicle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV It's not as popular as the leaf, but I see a fair number of them around here. Toyota and Mazda have made a joint venture for electric vehicles. They will be releasing their first vehicles in 2020. I'm not sure why they waited this long. I think the main reason for Toyota was that the Prius has been absolutely dominating the Japanese market for years, thanks in part to rebates from the government. I think it's the normal desire of a big company to avoid cannibalizing their successful sales. As for Mazda, they bet big on their turbine engine and I think they didn't have enough money to invest in R&D -- you will note that they never made a hybrid. I have no idea what Honda is doing. At one point they claimed that all of their cars were going to have electric drive trains. However, they put all of their eggs in the hydrogen infrastructure that almost certainly isn't going to pan out. They have stopped production of the hybrid Insight in Japan, so I don't really know what their next move is. Apparently they have the Clarity (a plug in hybrid) which I've never seen in Japan. However, I would not discount them as, like I said, they've seen the electric writing on the wall for a long time. I was just about to say that I would be surprised if Suzuki puts out an electric vehicle. The main office is literally down the street from my mother in laws place and I know lots of people who work there. However, I just did a google search and it appears that Suzuki has joined Toyota and Mazda in their joint venture and will release an EV in 2020 (however, reading between the lines, I think it might be a plugin hybrid aimed at continental Asian markets). As for Daihatsu, they have made some concept EV cars. I've got an article from 2010 where they made an EV version of the Mira. Keep in mind that Daihatsu has been experimenting with EV for a long time. They did the EV1 in 1973! They also have a whole range of commercial "cars" (more like golf carts, really) that you frequently see on Japanese roads. Basically one-seaters used for delivering things. I don't actually expect them to enter into the market seriously for at least 5 years, though, because they don't make expensive cars. Although the prices have risen a bit recently, the main thing about Daihatsu has been that you can buy a decent car for ~$10K. It's just not feasible to build EVs at that price point without going the golf cart route, I think. Subaru used to sell an EV in Japan. It didn't do very well and I've probably only seen it once or twice on the road. I think they are currently out of the market, but apparently have plans to re-enter in 2021. I don't know anything about Isuzu (except that they make a shit ton of kei-tra - ubiquitous white light "pickup" truck - that every single farmer in Japan owns). Apparently they have an electric truck, but it is quite big -- for hauling containers, etc. For consumer vehicles, I think they are in the same boat as Daihatsu -- their bread an butter is dirt cheap trucks that just aren't going to be feasible in EV forms for a while. One of the things that might surprise you is that I've never, ever seen a Tesla on the road in Japan. Probably they don't sell them here. Nor have I seen a Chevy volt. In fact I have not seen a single EV that isn't Japanese. If I didn't read HN, I would have the impression that Japanese manufacturers were the only companies making EVs. Of course, we know that's not true, but it's easy to get a strange perspective when you only experience things in one country. Having said that, I'll be curious to see if Toyota's decision to wait before making an EV will pay off. I tend to think that Nissan and Mitsubishi (having had EVs on the road for 8 years now) will have an advantage. However, it occurs to me that Nissan and Mitsubishi can't have been making much (if any) profit on their EV program, while Toyota has been making buckets off of the Prius. Also, Toyota, Mazda and apparently Suzuki are pooling their resources, which will reduce their initial cost to market, so it might actually pay off. Only time will tell. But this is just to say that Japanese manufacturers have not been sitting on their hands (with the possible exception of Honda -- I have no idea what they are doing).
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
virgilp 8y ago
Leaf didn't change anything. What changed the general attitude was half a milion people that pre-ordered Model3 with $1000 cash advance, in a matter of days, without knowing almost anything about it (other than "it's a Tesla"). [edit] Why the downvote? That event was obviously a huge wake-up call that proved to everyone there is real customer demand for electric cars, and that existing manufacturers are risking their future if they don't jump on the bandwagon.
- radiorental 8y ago
  > Leaf didn't change anything. Citation needed. Nissan has sold 400,000 of them to date. I believe that once the initial backorder is addressed and Model 3's get some miles under their belts we will see the various subpar engineering & manufacturing issues highlighted in the teardowns come back to bite. https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-teardown-deconstructed-3/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-teardown-decon... The model 3 excels where the SV talent was brought to bear but it's long term durability is clearly suspect; too many parts, too many fasteners on too heavy a frame. And that will have serious consequences for the brand over time.
  - virgilp 8y ago
    Let me rephrase: I can't name a single market development that I can convincingly argue was significantly influenced by the launch (or success) of Nissan Leaf. Nissan is way more effective than Tesla at mass-production, yes. But there's not one single market where Leaf is their most successful model (certainly true for 2017, I suspect for 2018 htat's also true). [edit] Maybe that's true; I'm not saying that Tesla will win the market long term. To make an analogy: you can say Tesla is Blackberry, not Apple. Maybe they don't "own" the smartphone market, and maybe in the end they day - BUT, they left their mark. Thay have had decisive influence in the industry. The Nissan Leaf? From where I stand, it looks like a Nokia Communicator - or worse. A product that does sell, true - but mostly because of the parent company; eventually it doesn't leave a lasting mark.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
codeulike 8y ago
No its not. Leaf led in 2014, but not since then.
- radiorental 8y ago
  Re-read my comment. It has sold more units that any other electric car.
  - codeulike 8y ago
    Right, so its most popular when viewed over a long timeframe because it was one of the first decent ones.

joenathanone 8y ago

I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but the top selling electric car is the Tesla Model 3. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-top-5-most-popular-cars/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-top-5-most-popular-ca... https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/09/tesla-model-3-becomes-1-best-selling-car-in-the-us/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/09/tesla-model-3-becomes-1...

radiorental 8y ago
You are aware there a whole bunch of other parts of the planet? Total worldwide sales of the leaf are north of 400,000 units. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf "Global sales totaled over 380,000 Leafs by December 2018, making the Leaf the world's all-time best-selling highway-capable electric car."
- mikekchar 8y ago
  I've been looking for a while: Can you furnish a link for worldwide sales of Leafs for 2018 (or at least several months). I've seen several estimates of 7K per month, which would be 84K units, but no actual figures.
  - radiorental 8y ago
    Updated my parent comment. I took my numbers from wikipedia. My understanding is that Leaf sales have declined as better cars have come on the market. That said, I was providing a counterpoint to the OP's statement that Japanese manufacturers weren't doing anything, when the facts clearly indicate otherwise.
    - purple_ducks 8y ago
      Your fact is that a (singular) Japanese manufacturer made an electric car which was ~popular. Even if it was the most popular selling electric car, it's dwarfed by sales of every other type of car (on every continent). Despite being on sale for ~8 years in Europe, it's still a novelty seeing one on the road. The Leaf wasn't the kick up the arse that other manufacturers needed, the Tesla 3 arguably was. This is in spite of Europe being a massive consumer of Japanese cars in general(Nissan & Toyota in particular). Assuming Tesla 3 doesn't get down to sub €35k price in the next year, Hynudai Kona seems like it will be the best selling EV in Europe in 2019 (provided the end dealers don't mess it up) Some other Japanese manufacturers: Toyota, Honda, Daihatsu, Suzuki, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Isuzu Barring Toyota who at least made some effort with the Prius. What have the rest of those industry players done for EV adoption/advancement? Nothing. Some (even in 2019) still haven't made inroads into EV.
      - mikekchar 8y ago
        As I live in Japan, I can help you with this. Mitsubishi has an electric vehicle and also partners with Nissan to maintain the charging infrastructure. Here's a Wikipedia link to Mitsubishi's vehicle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV It's not as popular as the leaf, but I see a fair number of them around here. Toyota and Mazda have made a joint venture for electric vehicles. They will be releasing their first vehicles in 2020. I'm not sure why they waited this long. I think the main reason for Toyota was that the Prius has been absolutely dominating the Japanese market for years, thanks in part to rebates from the government. I think it's the normal desire of a big company to avoid cannibalizing their successful sales. As for Mazda, they bet big on their turbine engine and I think they didn't have enough money to invest in R&D -- you will note that they never made a hybrid. I have no idea what Honda is doing. At one point they claimed that all of their cars were going to have electric drive trains. However, they put all of their eggs in the hydrogen infrastructure that almost certainly isn't going to pan out. They have stopped production of the hybrid Insight in Japan, so I don't really know what their next move is. Apparently they have the Clarity (a plug in hybrid) which I've never seen in Japan. However, I would not discount them as, like I said, they've seen the electric writing on the wall for a long time. I was just about to say that I would be surprised if Suzuki puts out an electric vehicle. The main office is literally down the street from my mother in laws place and I know lots of people who work there. However, I just did a google search and it appears that Suzuki has joined Toyota and Mazda in their joint venture and will release an EV in 2020 (however, reading between the lines, I think it might be a plugin hybrid aimed at continental Asian markets). As for Daihatsu, they have made some concept EV cars. I've got an article from 2010 where they made an EV version of the Mira. Keep in mind that Daihatsu has been experimenting with EV for a long time. They did the EV1 in 1973! They also have a whole range of commercial "cars" (more like golf carts, really) that you frequently see on Japanese roads. Basically one-seaters used for delivering things. I don't actually expect them to enter into the market seriously for at least 5 years, though, because they don't make expensive cars. Although the prices have risen a bit recently, the main thing about Daihatsu has been that you can buy a decent car for ~$10K. It's just not feasible to build EVs at that price point without going the golf cart route, I think. Subaru used to sell an EV in Japan. It didn't do very well and I've probably only seen it once or twice on the road. I think they are currently out of the market, but apparently have plans to re-enter in 2021. I don't know anything about Isuzu (except that they make a shit ton of kei-tra - ubiquitous white light "pickup" truck - that every single farmer in Japan owns). Apparently they have an electric truck, but it is quite big -- for hauling containers, etc. For consumer vehicles, I think they are in the same boat as Daihatsu -- their bread an butter is dirt cheap trucks that just aren't going to be feasible in EV forms for a while. One of the things that might surprise you is that I've never, ever seen a Tesla on the road in Japan. Probably they don't sell them here. Nor have I seen a Chevy volt. In fact I have not seen a single EV that isn't Japanese. If I didn't read HN, I would have the impression that Japanese manufacturers were the only companies making EVs. Of course, we know that's not true, but it's easy to get a strange perspective when you only experience things in one country. Having said that, I'll be curious to see if Toyota's decision to wait before making an EV will pay off. I tend to think that Nissan and Mitsubishi (having had EVs on the road for 8 years now) will have an advantage. However, it occurs to me that Nissan and Mitsubishi can't have been making much (if any) profit on their EV program, while Toyota has been making buckets off of the Prius. Also, Toyota, Mazda and apparently Suzuki are pooling their resources, which will reduce their initial cost to market, so it might actually pay off. Only time will tell. But this is just to say that Japanese manufacturers have not been sitting on their hands (with the possible exception of Honda -- I have no idea what they are doing).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

virgilp 8y ago

Leaf didn't change anything. What changed the general attitude was half a milion people that pre-ordered Model3 with $1000 cash advance, in a matter of days, without knowing almost anything about it (other than "it's a Tesla"). [edit] Why the downvote? That event was obviously a huge wake-up call that proved to everyone there is real customer demand for electric cars, and that existing manufacturers are risking their future if they don't jump on the bandwagon.

radiorental 8y ago
> Leaf didn't change anything. Citation needed. Nissan has sold 400,000 of them to date. I believe that once the initial backorder is addressed and Model 3's get some miles under their belts we will see the various subpar engineering & manufacturing issues highlighted in the teardowns come back to bite. https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-teardown-deconstructed-3/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-teardown-decon... The model 3 excels where the SV talent was brought to bear but it's long term durability is clearly suspect; too many parts, too many fasteners on too heavy a frame. And that will have serious consequences for the brand over time.
- virgilp 8y ago
  Let me rephrase: I can't name a single market development that I can convincingly argue was significantly influenced by the launch (or success) of Nissan Leaf. Nissan is way more effective than Tesla at mass-production, yes. But there's not one single market where Leaf is their most successful model (certainly true for 2017, I suspect for 2018 htat's also true). [edit] Maybe that's true; I'm not saying that Tesla will win the market long term. To make an analogy: you can say Tesla is Blackberry, not Apple. Maybe they don't "own" the smartphone market, and maybe in the end they day - BUT, they left their mark. Thay have had decisive influence in the industry. The Nissan Leaf? From where I stand, it looks like a Nokia Communicator - or worse. A product that does sell, true - but mostly because of the parent company; eventually it doesn't leave a lasting mark.
  - sokoloff 8y ago

codeulike 8y ago

No its not. Leaf led in 2014, but not since then.

radiorental 8y ago
Re-read my comment. It has sold more units that any other electric car.
- codeulike 8y ago
  Right, so its most popular when viewed over a long timeframe because it was one of the first decent ones.