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I appreciate you responding and explaining your perspective, even though we may disagree on the issue. > 1/2 the world treats dogs as family Do you think that

• Sholmesy 8y ago
  I have family friends who were unable to conceive. They have had border collies all their lives, who were all astonishingly clever (not just "tricks", but just with intuition etc). These dogs are basically their children. The "child" part of your hypothetical makes it difficult to know. I think they would save their own dog over an adult, however they are both very compassionate and love kids so I imagine it would be difficult to fight that human impulse to protect a child.
• tallanvor 8y ago
  It wouldn't surprise me at all. My dog is part of my family. She comes before any stranger.
  • throwaway713 8y ago
    I can't argue with an opinion, but this is just mind-blowing to me. Judging by everyone else's comments, it doesn't appear like yours is an isolated opinion either. I'm just at a total loss for words. I had no idea so many people value animal life above human life.
    • msl 8y ago
      What if they value all animals' (that is, including humans') lives equally? Would you rather save someone close to you or a stranger?
      • ikurei 8y ago
        I don't think (yeah, please answer if I'm wrong) that's true for anyone. You may value a dogs life as much as a human, some do. But those same people don't go around with extreme care to avoid stepping on an ant, and would kill insects if they where an annoyance or risk to health. So they do stablish a difference between some animals, where ants are in a different tier than dogs, but humans and dogs are together in the same tier. Personally I don't think it makes any sense. I do value animal lives greatly, and between a dog and a man I might save the dog in a split-second gut decision (and regret it later). I reckon many people use feelings to guide (or greatly inform) their morality. Which might or might not be that bad to be honest, I don't really have a solid basis for my morality either.
    • tallanvor 8y ago
      I don't think you understand the unconditional love that a dog has for its owner, and the commitment good people make when they choose to get one. For me it is moral and ethical that I put the safety and well being of my dog above people. That doesn't mean that I don't care about others, and it doesn't mean that I would ignore trying to save them once my dog was safe, but it is what is right for me.
      • Sholmesy 8y ago
        This comes closest to how I feel. You are responsible for your dog, unlike a stranger. The dog trusts you entirely and would do anything for you.
      • eeeuo 8y ago
        I love my pets profoundly. I have sacrificed immensely for them. But I would blow my brains out if I let a little girl burn to death so that I could save my dog.
        • hvidgaard 8y ago
          I'm completely in your camp. I don't know if I would blow my brains out. But the guilt of saving my dog over a child, would, at least for a while, completely consume me, and forever haunt me.
      • andrepd 8y ago
        Your moral compass is fucked. Dogs do not think and feel and live as humans do. Humans have thoughts, dreams, hopes, creativity, complex emotions. A rich inner life. Dogs have none of this. That you would prioritise your dog, rather than the life of a human child... is chilling to me. It's beyond selfish. Disclaimer: I have 2 dogs and 1 cat.
        • dkersten 8y ago
          How do you know that dogs have none of this? Until recently, people believed animals were just automatons (can’t find the famous quote..) and we have in more recent years discovered animals to be a lot more intelligent than we ever gave them credit for. We’ve also been discovering that a lot more animals are self aware than we ever thought (eg. There was a story here a few years back about how elephants recognise themselves in mirrors, but only if the mirror is large enough that they can see most of their bodies)
    • Sholmesy 8y ago
      In the interest of open discussion; what heuristic do you use to value "life"? I use a combination of innocence, vulnerability, consciousness and intelligence. E.g a baby life is worth more than a 40 year old's. There's no playbook for these values, you have to decide for yourself.
      • ikurei 8y ago
        I'm honestly curious, this topic (how people arrive at their morality) fascinates me. We would probably agree a lot (I don't eat meat mostly out of a similar logic). Why innocence? How does innocence make a life more valuable? It's true that the kid has done nothing wrong, whereas the 40yo has sinned thoroughly, but on the other hand the kid has done nothing good for the world, and the 40yo probably has. And vulnerability? If a high-speed train/cancer/thug is going to kill a 40yo and a toddler, how does the increased inherent vulnerability of the toddler make any difference?
        • Sholmesy 8y ago
          Innocence and vulnerability = ability to defend themselves. There's something inherently wrong about harming something that is incapable of defending themselves. I imagine it's the same instinct that makes humans root for the underdog.
    • michaelmrose 8y ago
      Possibly because a large portion of humans are unethical, immoral, and stupid. 1/4 the human race wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, 1/4 would actually set the fire, 1/4 would only pour a bucket over your head if it didn't involve walking too far and especially if others were watching.
    • harimau777 8y ago
      I don't think it's putting animal life above human life so much as putting family before non-family even if the family is an animal. Granted that wouldn't be the priority that I would consider ideal, but I don't think it's illogical.
    • yllorepap 8y ago
      It’s mind blowing to me too. However I would probably choose my dog over a child from another race.
    • klibertp 8y ago
      Please tell me - where exactly do you draw the value of human life from? What exactly makes human life more valuable than any other life? I'm asking honestly, in the hopes that it's something less delusional than appeal to "soul" or "god" (which would immediately terminate all discussion, FWIW)
      • nvusuvu 8y ago
        I believe we are spirit children of a Heavenly Father and have infinite worth and potential as his children.
    • State_Of_Mind 8y ago
      I fear that this is really getting off track for the main and this might be in response to the wrong comment but is it really that surprising? (sadly) In another comment of yours you mentioned choosing a pet or a random child? What about another, supposedly easier question, which would you prefer to save? A human life or $23? $23 might seem arbitrary but I picked it from my personal experience with a charity I volunteer with called ICM. It helps those with ultra poverty in the Philippines and I've had the great blessing (and curse) to undertake a tragic trip to the slums to meet these people. So I know the best I can offer is mine and ICM's word but that really can save a life. I want you to know I don't bring this up to try and start a fight or be argumentative but this question plagued me when I returned home and to some extent still does. How can I buy a video game (random example), knowing that money I've just spent could have saved a life? How do I, how do we, live like this? I'm an Australian and statistically, we're only giving less with each passing year, and what we do give? As on 2016 a measly $764. For comparison our minimum weekly wage is about ~$670. The least able of us (that are able at all) would only have to give a little over one of their weeks to match that. Personally I'm the sort of crazy where I think of this almost every time I make a purchase and for the longest time it was killing me. The TL;DR of how I was able to answer this for myself involves a lot of reading, looking and thinking is basically summed up as follows. For most normal humans (myself included) we need to spend on ourselves to make us functional enough to care for others. We are sadly not infinite source of giving. However I think society today has forgotten or changed enough that we no longer see this self healing as a means to enable us to help others but as the point of living, hence the ever decreasing percentages of people giving but I still have hope. I'm sorry at this point I don't know exactly where I'm going with this at this but it's not that people value animal life above human life, it's that they value their own life and quality of life above others and as sucky as that answer is, I hope you find it help answer your questions in a manner that makes more sense.
    • libria 8y ago
      You are straying from the original issue which is "is loss of different kinds relatable?" and not "is 1 form of life greater than another". At what level on the spectrum does the offense creep in when someone tries to relate to the loss of a parent? Is sibling loss relatable? Half-sibling? Cousin? Brother-in-law? Where do we start the grief-gatekeeping? If I lost 5 children and someone told me they lost a parent so they pat me on the shoulder and say they understand, can I be offended? I have lost grandparents before, but felt nothing since I didn't know them. If someone told me they'd lost a grandparent close to them, I think it'd be offensive for me to say I could relate. > I had no idea so many people value animal life above human life. I think this is the problem. When people say they relate they are not claiming "my dog == your mom", merely that they have felt grief through loss of a relationship/bond. As emotional loss is relative, we don't currently have a way to measure if that loss meets threshold levels that make it acceptable for them to converse with us.
    • deleted 8y ago
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    • dragonwriter 8y ago
      > I'm just at a total loss for words. I had no idea so many people value animal life above human life. Many people manifestly value inanimate property, as long as it is theirs, over human life outside of close friends and family, so is it really a surprise that that is also true of family pets?
• barrkel 8y ago
  There would be more social opprobrium to save the pet, and the grief would undoubtedly be greater if the pet died instead. If nobody was looking, I think most would save their pet. Unknown unrelated people simply aren't very important. Wars would be impossible if it were otherwise.
  • scarejunba 8y ago
    Interesting. Do you ever test your hypotheses? Here is some evidence regarding your "most" claim. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201306/would-you-save-puppy-or-child-burning-building%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog...
    • adar 8y ago
      Test his hypothesis how, exactly? By putting a child and a dog into a disaster situation?
      • scarejunba 8y ago
        Examples available in the link in the comment you responded to. In order to attempt to falsify a hypothesis you don't need to necessarily run a direct experiment on it. In fact, few things are testable like that. Anyway, I think I have what I need to know as to how he tests his ideas.
    • barrkel 8y ago
      So 40% admit that they would save their own dog over a foreign tourist, when asked. Now, ask yourself how many would save their own dog if they weren't being asked or observed (and implicitly judged)? I consider the link fairly strong evidence for my claim.
      • scarejunba 8y ago
        Very interesting knowledge acquisition technique. Thank you for sharing.
• mynameishere 8y ago
  Dude, you're arguing with crazy people. Just forget it.
  • Sholmesy 8y ago
    It's not constructive to call people crazy =\ This is a fairly divisive issue (what my original comment was about), and further ostracizing either side of the debate is not productive.
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• harimau777 8y ago
  This situation probably doesn't apply to people on HN, but as a thought experiment: In a pre-industrial society or one where rule of law has broken down I could see a situation where the labor and protection provided by an animal made them a part of the family in a very real way. In those circumstances I could see that the life of an animal might be much more important than the life of an outsider; even if only in a strictly practical sense. Note that I'm not necessarily trying to argue whether that would be correct in a moral sense.
• throwaway-dogs 8y ago
  Yes, absolutely. I know I personally would. Now, if it was between a stranger dog and a stranger child I'd choose the child.
  • andrepd 8y ago
    Then you are a terrible and deeply selfish person.
    • throwaway-dogs 8y ago
      Why? This may be how you feel, but you have no reasoning to back it.
      • andrepd 8y ago
        I do. See my other post.
• belorn 8y ago
  Change that scenario just so slightly and I would bet that answers would significant change: Do you think a dog owner would risk their own life (to varied degrees) to rescue a family dog if their house started burning?
  • Sholmesy 8y ago
    This is an excellent pivot of the original question, and I think the obvious answer for most answers is yes.
• glangdale 8y ago
  I'm going to say after reading some of the other responses that there's something seriously fucked up about the idea that you would save your dog. If you even, for a minute, thought that saving a dog with a life expectancy of 10-20 years tops living as a pet for someone's indulgence is remotely comparable to saving a child - who might live to 80 as an independent being - give yourself an uppercut. I'm a dog lover and love my dog, but I would sacrifice her in a heartbeat for a child - any child, regardless of whose it is.
  • SCHiM 8y ago
    This is exactly it! Why don't people feel that they should sacrifice themselves and carry their grief and their emotional loss, and save the child? I agree with some others in this thread, those that would save their pet are selfish beyond my wildest imagination. To save themselves the grief of losing a subjective family member they sacrifice human life for what is to outside observers just an animal. Be as you want to be, but in this I feel justified in judging those people most harshly indeed.
  • glangdale 8y ago
    Also, while this is a wild hypothetical, a lot of uncritical celebrators of their dog's apparently human-like right to life and liberty seem overly willing to make the choice between (a) a hypothetical threat to their dog's continued liberty and (b) an unconscionable threat to the well-being of other people - kids, particularly - around them. Everyone who has a dog of some sort of 'questionable breed' who doesn't do everything in their power to socialize and control said breed is gambling with the lives of the animals, humans (kids and adults) around them. The demented sentimentalizing of All Sacred Canine Life has cost a few humans theirs instead.
• deleted 8y ago
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• sctb 8y ago
  Sometimes these sorts of hypotheticals lead to interesting discussion and insights, but other times we get this sort of thing. Sparks are just sparks, but we should be careful because of the possibility of utterly bleak flamewars such as this.