8 ms·

The crazy cost of real estate is far more hindering IMO. Average student around here is 25k. Average house (detached) price is over 1.3 million. Toronto area, f

The crazy cost of real estate is far more hindering IMO. Average student around here is 25k. Average house (detached) price is over 1.3 million. Toronto area, for reference.

eli_gottlieb 8y ago
Similar here in Boston. Your average two-bedroom apartment/condo costs... what was it, $350k-$500k, depending on the area. YIMBY or bust.
- rch 8y ago
  We have a strong YIMBY movement going in Boulder, but I've never seen a model based estimate of how many additional housing units would be necessary to actually lower the cost of individual ownership.
  - jseliger 8y ago
    You don't need a model; you have a market. Remove height limits and parking minimums and we will fairly rapidly find out how many units are necessary to bring rents in line with cost of construction.
    - souprock 8y ago
      That doesn't just increase supply. It also reduces demand. There may be a billion people who would move there now if they could afford it. The additional units required to get things into the affordable price range would degrade the experience though, causing most people to reject the result. So what this accomplishes is the destruction of a desirable place to be. The smaller buildings and easier parking are inherently part of the desirability. Even the exclusiveness itself is part of the desirability.
      - zip1234 8y ago
        Perhaps getting rid of height limits entirely isn't a great idea, but an overall height limit that allows building up to one story taller than the buildings next to the one you are building seems reasonable and would allow a city to grow up gradually. As far as desirability--what makes European cities desirable and charming? I'm certain it is NOT ample parking or one story bungalows with huge yards.
      - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
        >The smaller buildings and easier parking are inherently part of the desirability. Even the exclusiveness itself is part of the desirability. For you, maybe.
    - rch 8y ago
      I've seen plenty of sophisticated models that developers use to answer this type of question. Why can't we have the same level of effort applied to the problem of housing accessibility?
Spooky23 8y ago
Averages hide alot. Most of my friends who went to private colleges (graduation 1998-2002) left with ~$100k in student loans. At that time, "sticker price" was $25-30k. I was fortunate to attend a state school before the tuition exploded.
admax88q 8y ago
> Average house (detached) price is over 1.3 million. The popularity of wanting to live in Toronto makes detached housing for everyone who wants it untenable. There just isn't enough space.
- jseliger 8y ago
  The popularity of wanting to live in Toronto makes detached housing for everyone who wants it untenable. There just isn't enough space. There is plenty of "space;" Toronto, like many municipalities, just makes increasing the housing supply illegal: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17896482/building-more-stuff-housing-gentrification-cities https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17896482/b.... When supply is restricted in the face of rising demand, prices rise. This is what existing owners want: http://cityobservatory.org/homevoters-v-the-growth-machine/ http://cityobservatory.org/homevoters-v-the-growth-machine/ and that's why we're getting it. Baby boomers are, sometimes literally, forcing their own children out of the city.
  - admax88q 8y ago
    That's a problem for sure, but my point is that regardless is you cannot physically increasing the housing supply of _singly detached houses_ in Toronto or similar cities, regardless of policy.
- shados 8y ago
  Yeah, a lot of articles and studies quote single family detached homes, while referring to high density, high demand areas where those things basically don't exist. The cost of a 2 bedroom single family in Manhattan is not a very interesting metric.
deadmetheny 8y ago
Home ownership isn't realistic in every market, especially ones in which there's such huge demand. The easy answer to this is living somewhere with low real estate costs (e.g. the Midwest US) instead of massively over-saturated markets.
- romwell 8y ago
  Sure, the easy answer is to save up a few grand (when you don't have money to begin with) to move into an area where there are job little opportunities. That's easy, even easier if you have a partner or a family. The #1 reason why in-demand markets are that way is jobs. Moving out of these areas is not an easy answer.
  - deadmetheny 8y ago
    There's plenty of opportunities around that pay enough to afford real estate. They won't be as sexy, pay as well as the coasts (the lower COL helps to offset this), or likely to be working on cutting edge problems, so if you're looking for that kind of work you're not gonna have much luck. To say there's nothing anywhere outside of major cities at all is misinformed.
- zaccus 8y ago
  Places with low real estate costs tend to have fewer and lower-paying jobs. Part of me would love to move back to KY where I'm from, but where would I work? That's the reason I left in the first place, no good jobs.
  - souprock 8y ago
    The places that pop into mind are Lexmark, Big Ass Fans, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, and Johnson Controls. There are lots of smallish places doing factory automation, particularly near the Toyota factory. Salary seldom keeps up with real estate costs. The real estate cost difference can be a factor of 10, but you won't see that difference for salary. Lots of low-cost areas will specialize in an industry. You shouldn't expect to pick a random low-cost area and find the industry you want, but the industry you want is probably in at least one low-cost area. Find that area, move there, and do well in life.
NathanCH 8y ago
But why would you compare a student salary with the most expensive type of property you can find?
diminoten 8y ago
If you want to buy a home and can't where you are, change where you are! I know it sounds obvious, but if you haven't looked into it in the past year, I think you'll find it's easier now more than ever to manage the (admittedly many) logistics of finding a new area for yourself and your family. Tons of tools for each aspect.

The crazy cost of real estate is far more hindering IMO. Average student around here is 25k. Average house (detached) price is over 1.3 million. Toronto area, for reference.

eli_gottlieb 8y ago

Similar here in Boston. Your average two-bedroom apartment/condo costs... what was it, $350k-$500k, depending on the area. YIMBY or bust.

rch 8y ago
We have a strong YIMBY movement going in Boulder, but I've never seen a model based estimate of how many additional housing units would be necessary to actually lower the cost of individual ownership.
- jseliger 8y ago
  You don't need a model; you have a market. Remove height limits and parking minimums and we will fairly rapidly find out how many units are necessary to bring rents in line with cost of construction.
  - souprock 8y ago
    That doesn't just increase supply. It also reduces demand. There may be a billion people who would move there now if they could afford it. The additional units required to get things into the affordable price range would degrade the experience though, causing most people to reject the result. So what this accomplishes is the destruction of a desirable place to be. The smaller buildings and easier parking are inherently part of the desirability. Even the exclusiveness itself is part of the desirability.
    - zip1234 8y ago
      Perhaps getting rid of height limits entirely isn't a great idea, but an overall height limit that allows building up to one story taller than the buildings next to the one you are building seems reasonable and would allow a city to grow up gradually. As far as desirability--what makes European cities desirable and charming? I'm certain it is NOT ample parking or one story bungalows with huge yards.
    - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
      >The smaller buildings and easier parking are inherently part of the desirability. Even the exclusiveness itself is part of the desirability. For you, maybe.
  - rch 8y ago
    I've seen plenty of sophisticated models that developers use to answer this type of question. Why can't we have the same level of effort applied to the problem of housing accessibility?

Spooky23 8y ago

Averages hide alot. Most of my friends who went to private colleges (graduation 1998-2002) left with ~$100k in student loans. At that time, "sticker price" was $25-30k. I was fortunate to attend a state school before the tuition exploded.

admax88q 8y ago

> Average house (detached) price is over 1.3 million. The popularity of wanting to live in Toronto makes detached housing for everyone who wants it untenable. There just isn't enough space.

jseliger 8y ago
The popularity of wanting to live in Toronto makes detached housing for everyone who wants it untenable. There just isn't enough space. There is plenty of "space;" Toronto, like many municipalities, just makes increasing the housing supply illegal: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17896482/building-more-stuff-housing-gentrification-cities https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/24/17896482/b.... When supply is restricted in the face of rising demand, prices rise. This is what existing owners want: http://cityobservatory.org/homevoters-v-the-growth-machine/ http://cityobservatory.org/homevoters-v-the-growth-machine/ and that's why we're getting it. Baby boomers are, sometimes literally, forcing their own children out of the city.
- admax88q 8y ago
  That's a problem for sure, but my point is that regardless is you cannot physically increasing the housing supply of _singly detached houses_ in Toronto or similar cities, regardless of policy.
shados 8y ago
Yeah, a lot of articles and studies quote single family detached homes, while referring to high density, high demand areas where those things basically don't exist. The cost of a 2 bedroom single family in Manhattan is not a very interesting metric.

deadmetheny 8y ago

Home ownership isn't realistic in every market, especially ones in which there's such huge demand. The easy answer to this is living somewhere with low real estate costs (e.g. the Midwest US) instead of massively over-saturated markets.

romwell 8y ago
Sure, the easy answer is to save up a few grand (when you don't have money to begin with) to move into an area where there are job little opportunities. That's easy, even easier if you have a partner or a family. The #1 reason why in-demand markets are that way is jobs. Moving out of these areas is not an easy answer.
- deadmetheny 8y ago
  There's plenty of opportunities around that pay enough to afford real estate. They won't be as sexy, pay as well as the coasts (the lower COL helps to offset this), or likely to be working on cutting edge problems, so if you're looking for that kind of work you're not gonna have much luck. To say there's nothing anywhere outside of major cities at all is misinformed.
zaccus 8y ago
Places with low real estate costs tend to have fewer and lower-paying jobs. Part of me would love to move back to KY where I'm from, but where would I work? That's the reason I left in the first place, no good jobs.
- souprock 8y ago
  The places that pop into mind are Lexmark, Big Ass Fans, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, and Johnson Controls. There are lots of smallish places doing factory automation, particularly near the Toyota factory. Salary seldom keeps up with real estate costs. The real estate cost difference can be a factor of 10, but you won't see that difference for salary. Lots of low-cost areas will specialize in an industry. You shouldn't expect to pick a random low-cost area and find the industry you want, but the industry you want is probably in at least one low-cost area. Find that area, move there, and do well in life.

NathanCH 8y ago

But why would you compare a student salary with the most expensive type of property you can find?

diminoten 8y ago

If you want to buy a home and can't where you are, change where you are! I know it sounds obvious, but if you haven't looked into it in the past year, I think you'll find it's easier now more than ever to manage the (admittedly many) logistics of finding a new area for yourself and your family. Tons of tools for each aspect.