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I find the comments in this thread to be counterproductive (bordering on disturbing/dangerous). Trivializing/dismissing the existence of mental disorders based

I find the comments in this thread to be counterproductive (bordering on disturbing/dangerous). Trivializing/dismissing the existence of mental disorders based on uninformed viewpoints can cause harm to others, in that they can feel ostracized and become less likely to seek the help they need. Comments like this are along the same lines as 'everybody gets depressed--you just have to choose to be happy'. Depression is a frequently a severe and life-altering disease, and I hope everyone can recognize this sort of statement as absurd. Similarly, hoarding (as described in the article) is a cluster of persistent behaviors distinct from related disorders (like OCD). Like any cluster (esp. clusters in a high-dimensional space, like human behavior), the class membership is inherently fuzzy--everyone exists somewhere on the hoarding spectrum or OCD spectrum or ADD spectrum. But by definition very few (~6%, according to the link) people are close enough to the far side of the spectrum that it causes severe distress to themselves and others. Think of it (very loosely) like cancer--virtually everyone has some cancer cells in their body, but our protective systems are usually able to keep them in check before they run amok. But once they do, it undeniably becomes cancer. I don't really know how to say this in a better way, but trivializing or denying the existence of mental illness is cruel and reductive, and these sorts of attitudes tend to ricochet around. Please don't participate in doing so.

WhompingWindows 8y ago
As an ADHD researcher, I've found many commenters on HN to be ignorant and still highly opinionated about ADHD diagnosis and medication, which was my thesis topic. Even highly educated, very smart individuals are growing up with inherent biases against these mental illnesses which they do not know anything about except heresay and pseudo-scientific nonsense. A recent thread on ADHD brought these people out of the woodwork, and I received many downvotes for spreading my belief that the ADHD research community is not convinced of the over-diagnosis of ADHD, which many arm-chair experts seem to take as a given. It's simply good scientific behavior to not take this for granted, to do more studying, and yet numerous STEM experts have spouted their certainty that ADHD is overdiagnosed and we're drugging our poorly parented/educated kids into submission. I don't know much about the other mental health disorders, but I'd be willing to bet HN at large is not well-equipped to constructively discuss hoarding, OCD, or even depression/anxiety. Though, I will say I believe depression/anxiety get less stigmatized than OCD and ADHD, perhaps due to their increased prevalence and incidence in today's world.
- ConceptJunkie 8y ago
  The idea of depression as a real disorder that requires treatment seems to be on its way to being sufficiently suffused into the public consciousness. I don't think this is the case for things like ADHD, OCD, hoarding, misophonia, or milder forms of autism like Asperger's.
- jointpdf 8y ago
  Thank you for all your comments (across many threads) that are helping to destigmatize these issues. ADD/ADHD and stimulant treatment is an especially loaded one. A lot of peoples' personal experience with stimulants is, "oh yeah I took Adderall during finals in college and went on a giddy cleaning spree--no way we should medicate our kids with meth". Every person's physiologic response to stimulants is unique--and as you say, some people (like me) really and truly need them to function and be themselves. That being said, I can relate to the sentiment that stamping a red ADD on a kid's forehead, loading their bloodstream with amphetamines, and sending them back to the same mismatched school environment (with little/no other plan of action) is not a recipe for success. It wasn't for me, anyways. Perhaps my hindsight is a little distorted, but I think a more personalized and interactive educational experience would have been the single most effective way for me to blossom educationally (and consequently emotionally). My drive to learn has always been there, but the differences based on environment, subject matter, and social setting were extremely stark. I outright failed some classes and almost got kicked out of school. At the same time in other HS classes (e.g. computer programming, web design, project-based business mgmt. class), I went above and beyond. I bought a C++ game programming as a 12-year old (and I built my own computer, with a friend)--the ambition was there, but that book is still sitting on my shelf unread. No one identified that interest as something that needed adult encouragement, so my adolescent passion for programming died on the vine. To what extent to you (or others) study this sort of thing (i.e. personalized education for ADHD kids)? In particular, I'm intrigued by the potential of things like intelligent tutoring systems, experiential education, explorable/interactive explanations (AR/VR?), biofeedback/BCI, and so on. Are you and others bullish or bearish on these sorts of technological solutions to ADHD?
- sizzle 8y ago
  Thank you for your research ADD is very near and dear to me. Here are some questions rattling around in my ADD head, feel free to pick any that interest you: 0. High-speed porn and excessive masturbation is a widespread phenomenon of our era. When started from a young age, frequent daily orgasm releases a cocktail of neurotransmitters and hormones, with prolactin being a big one. Prolactin has been shown to inhibit dopamine as a component of the refractory period (sexual satiety) in men. Could this excess prolactin release affect cognition/executive function to the point of being mistaken as ADHD symptoms in adolescents/adults? See: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/research/ https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/research/ 1. Are there any bio markers to test for ADHD more conclusively? 2. Is ADHD genetic? 3. What are the long term effects of daily amphetamine usage e.g. irreversible dopamine down regulation, increased risk for Alzheimers/Dementia/Huntingtons etc. 4. Are there any new novel/promising medications currently being studied? 5. Has there been any attempts at measuring dopamine receptors in an ADHD brain vs neurotypical brain? What were the findings? 6. Is ADHD a vestigial trait from Neanderthals or, said differently, what is the evolutionary advantage that allows ADHD to propogate from generation to generation. 7. Since ADHD is linked to risk taking behavior e.g. gambling, criminal activities etc, what % of the prison population has ADHD if you had to guess? Thanks for any responses in advance!
ConceptJunkie 8y ago
Well said. I think the problem is not that these illnesses aren't perceived as real, but that people generally don't understand them, like you say, and too often, they are used to explain problems that have other causes. As someone who does suffer from ADD, but not severely, I totally understand how the problem can be real, but the flip side of putting every restless kid, especially boys, on stimulants is also a problem. I would expect the HN crowd to be people who would be likely have more experience with these kinds of disorders, or at least be more exposed to people who experience them, and that they would be a little more sensitive to the reality of these disorders.
- jointpdf 8y ago
  Yes--for such a searingly intelligent community, I find certain patterns of comments here to be quite jarring in their lack of nuance and understanding. It's a statistical certainty that a large number of people here have brooding mental health issues of their own that they are reluctant to address (partially due to stigma, which is why I'm trying to fight these sorts of comments--without counterslinging invectives at people). One theory is that the typical HN reader has high 'locus of control'--the degree of belief that they have full command over the outcomes of events, and by extension their minds. In general, this is an admirable (necessary?) quality that enables us to be solution-oriented optimists with the conviction that any problem can succumb to the right combination of effort and skill--including mental illness (or symptoms/patterns indicative of the onset of such). But when the problem is with your own mind, this attitude can lead you into a labyrinth of cognitive distortions that obfuscate your awareness and acceptance about what is actually going on: "Depression is for suicidal/sad people. I'm just getting burnt out--I'll feel better if I turn on the afterburners and crank through this week/month/year. Then I'll take a break and clear my mind with a meditation retreat or backpacking trip." "If I nail this side project, that will repair my self-esteem." "I'll just vape a little bit before work, that'll tone down the anxiety." "OCD? Isn't that like people who wash their hands down to the bone?" [opens HN --> NYTimes --> ESPN --> HN --> ..., on an infinite loop] "This is just my personality, mental disorders are pumped up by the pharmaceutical-industrial complex to extract as much profit as possible. Therapists aren't going to help either--I can talk myself through these things if I wanted." "What is work going to think if I leave early once a week to go to a therapy appointment? They'll get the wrong idea and think I'm crazy." I'm not making fun of anyone here--these are the thoughts of millions of highly intelligent and self-efficacious people that are nonetheless succumbing to the siren's call of denial. Rational behavior often leads to irrational outcomes. The more time you spend in these cycles, the more ingrained these patterns become. The mental trails become well-worn, so that they're always the path of least resistance. You believe that there is no problem, that the problem will run its course over time, or that you aren't trying hard enough. These are only some of the wicked tricks of depression, anxiety, and other malware of the mind. The difficult reality if you're deep in this labyrinth, your likelihood of navigating your way out on your own--though possible, if you're lucky--is vanishingly small--it requires courage to admit and accept that you need guidance from those qualified to provide it to you. And yes--it requires that same strong locus of control (that trapped you in this state to begin with) persist through the hard steps back towards a place of wellness. I believe there are many paths out--but there are not any shortcuts that don't lead right back to the entrance. I myself have been through, and am going through, all of this--partially or chiefly due to a reluctance to accept that I exhibited a cluster of behavioral patterns consistent with real mental disorders (depression, anxiety, ADD, OCD), and elected to stoically sweep things under the rug, until the rug swept itself out from underneath me. I'd like to help prevent that, for others, in whatever small way possible. So the point of all this--if you are (or think you are) suffering from an undiagnosed or untreated mental illness, or are headed in that direction--then try to accept that there is nothing wrong with you, as a human. You are just carrying around a challenging systems problem asking to be solved.

WhompingWindows 8y ago

As an ADHD researcher, I've found many commenters on HN to be ignorant and still highly opinionated about ADHD diagnosis and medication, which was my thesis topic. Even highly educated, very smart individuals are growing up with inherent biases against these mental illnesses which they do not know anything about except heresay and pseudo-scientific nonsense. A recent thread on ADHD brought these people out of the woodwork, and I received many downvotes for spreading my belief that the ADHD research community is not convinced of the over-diagnosis of ADHD, which many arm-chair experts seem to take as a given. It's simply good scientific behavior to not take this for granted, to do more studying, and yet numerous STEM experts have spouted their certainty that ADHD is overdiagnosed and we're drugging our poorly parented/educated kids into submission. I don't know much about the other mental health disorders, but I'd be willing to bet HN at large is not well-equipped to constructively discuss hoarding, OCD, or even depression/anxiety. Though, I will say I believe depression/anxiety get less stigmatized than OCD and ADHD, perhaps due to their increased prevalence and incidence in today's world.

ConceptJunkie 8y ago
The idea of depression as a real disorder that requires treatment seems to be on its way to being sufficiently suffused into the public consciousness. I don't think this is the case for things like ADHD, OCD, hoarding, misophonia, or milder forms of autism like Asperger's.
jointpdf 8y ago
Thank you for all your comments (across many threads) that are helping to destigmatize these issues. ADD/ADHD and stimulant treatment is an especially loaded one. A lot of peoples' personal experience with stimulants is, "oh yeah I took Adderall during finals in college and went on a giddy cleaning spree--no way we should medicate our kids with meth". Every person's physiologic response to stimulants is unique--and as you say, some people (like me) really and truly need them to function and be themselves. That being said, I can relate to the sentiment that stamping a red ADD on a kid's forehead, loading their bloodstream with amphetamines, and sending them back to the same mismatched school environment (with little/no other plan of action) is not a recipe for success. It wasn't for me, anyways. Perhaps my hindsight is a little distorted, but I think a more personalized and interactive educational experience would have been the single most effective way for me to blossom educationally (and consequently emotionally). My drive to learn has always been there, but the differences based on environment, subject matter, and social setting were extremely stark. I outright failed some classes and almost got kicked out of school. At the same time in other HS classes (e.g. computer programming, web design, project-based business mgmt. class), I went above and beyond. I bought a C++ game programming as a 12-year old (and I built my own computer, with a friend)--the ambition was there, but that book is still sitting on my shelf unread. No one identified that interest as something that needed adult encouragement, so my adolescent passion for programming died on the vine. To what extent to you (or others) study this sort of thing (i.e. personalized education for ADHD kids)? In particular, I'm intrigued by the potential of things like intelligent tutoring systems, experiential education, explorable/interactive explanations (AR/VR?), biofeedback/BCI, and so on. Are you and others bullish or bearish on these sorts of technological solutions to ADHD?
sizzle 8y ago
Thank you for your research ADD is very near and dear to me. Here are some questions rattling around in my ADD head, feel free to pick any that interest you: 0. High-speed porn and excessive masturbation is a widespread phenomenon of our era. When started from a young age, frequent daily orgasm releases a cocktail of neurotransmitters and hormones, with prolactin being a big one. Prolactin has been shown to inhibit dopamine as a component of the refractory period (sexual satiety) in men. Could this excess prolactin release affect cognition/executive function to the point of being mistaken as ADHD symptoms in adolescents/adults? See: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/research/ https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/research/ 1. Are there any bio markers to test for ADHD more conclusively? 2. Is ADHD genetic? 3. What are the long term effects of daily amphetamine usage e.g. irreversible dopamine down regulation, increased risk for Alzheimers/Dementia/Huntingtons etc. 4. Are there any new novel/promising medications currently being studied? 5. Has there been any attempts at measuring dopamine receptors in an ADHD brain vs neurotypical brain? What were the findings? 6. Is ADHD a vestigial trait from Neanderthals or, said differently, what is the evolutionary advantage that allows ADHD to propogate from generation to generation. 7. Since ADHD is linked to risk taking behavior e.g. gambling, criminal activities etc, what % of the prison population has ADHD if you had to guess? Thanks for any responses in advance!

ConceptJunkie 8y ago

Well said. I think the problem is not that these illnesses aren't perceived as real, but that people generally don't understand them, like you say, and too often, they are used to explain problems that have other causes. As someone who does suffer from ADD, but not severely, I totally understand how the problem can be real, but the flip side of putting every restless kid, especially boys, on stimulants is also a problem. I would expect the HN crowd to be people who would be likely have more experience with these kinds of disorders, or at least be more exposed to people who experience them, and that they would be a little more sensitive to the reality of these disorders.

jointpdf 8y ago
Yes--for such a searingly intelligent community, I find certain patterns of comments here to be quite jarring in their lack of nuance and understanding. It's a statistical certainty that a large number of people here have brooding mental health issues of their own that they are reluctant to address (partially due to stigma, which is why I'm trying to fight these sorts of comments--without counterslinging invectives at people). One theory is that the typical HN reader has high 'locus of control'--the degree of belief that they have full command over the outcomes of events, and by extension their minds. In general, this is an admirable (necessary?) quality that enables us to be solution-oriented optimists with the conviction that any problem can succumb to the right combination of effort and skill--including mental illness (or symptoms/patterns indicative of the onset of such). But when the problem is with your own mind, this attitude can lead you into a labyrinth of cognitive distortions that obfuscate your awareness and acceptance about what is actually going on: "Depression is for suicidal/sad people. I'm just getting burnt out--I'll feel better if I turn on the afterburners and crank through this week/month/year. Then I'll take a break and clear my mind with a meditation retreat or backpacking trip." "If I nail this side project, that will repair my self-esteem." "I'll just vape a little bit before work, that'll tone down the anxiety." "OCD? Isn't that like people who wash their hands down to the bone?" [opens HN --> NYTimes --> ESPN --> HN --> ..., on an infinite loop] "This is just my personality, mental disorders are pumped up by the pharmaceutical-industrial complex to extract as much profit as possible. Therapists aren't going to help either--I can talk myself through these things if I wanted." "What is work going to think if I leave early once a week to go to a therapy appointment? They'll get the wrong idea and think I'm crazy." I'm not making fun of anyone here--these are the thoughts of millions of highly intelligent and self-efficacious people that are nonetheless succumbing to the siren's call of denial. Rational behavior often leads to irrational outcomes. The more time you spend in these cycles, the more ingrained these patterns become. The mental trails become well-worn, so that they're always the path of least resistance. You believe that there is no problem, that the problem will run its course over time, or that you aren't trying hard enough. These are only some of the wicked tricks of depression, anxiety, and other malware of the mind. The difficult reality if you're deep in this labyrinth, your likelihood of navigating your way out on your own--though possible, if you're lucky--is vanishingly small--it requires courage to admit and accept that you need guidance from those qualified to provide it to you. And yes--it requires that same strong locus of control (that trapped you in this state to begin with) persist through the hard steps back towards a place of wellness. I believe there are many paths out--but there are not any shortcuts that don't lead right back to the entrance. I myself have been through, and am going through, all of this--partially or chiefly due to a reluctance to accept that I exhibited a cluster of behavioral patterns consistent with real mental disorders (depression, anxiety, ADD, OCD), and elected to stoically sweep things under the rug, until the rug swept itself out from underneath me. I'd like to help prevent that, for others, in whatever small way possible. So the point of all this--if you are (or think you are) suffering from an undiagnosed or untreated mental illness, or are headed in that direction--then try to accept that there is nothing wrong with you, as a human. You are just carrying around a challenging systems problem asking to be solved.