5 ms·

The boost was a weak compromise that doesn't reflect the desires of the right. Build a wall and it will still be up when a new president comes in. If Trump sett

The boost was a weak compromise that doesn't reflect the desires of the right. Build a wall and it will still be up when a new president comes in. If Trump settled for the boost, he'd be making a very weak compromise. Just because the dems offered something doesn't mean it was a good counter offer.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
What are the desires of the right? Why do they desire a wall? Is it possible to make a compromise between the wall and the reasons why the wall is desired?
- thatoneuser 8y ago
  I think they want a permanent and reliable way to minimize illegal immigration. I doubt there's much room for compromise, as there's been nothing proposed which would have the efficacy of a wall without a lot of downsides.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    Unfortunately, given that the cartels have tunneling down to a science, I wouldn't really call the wall "reliable".
    - thatoneuser 8y ago
      Where's your source for that, keeping in mind overall volume and effecacy?
      - yellowapple 8y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_tunnel#US-Mexico https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_tunnel#US-Mexico
    - dorchadas 8y ago
      And don't most undocumented immigrants first enter legally and then just don't leave? I know several Irish immigrants who've done that (though I bet nobody would call them 'illegal", which is what leads me to suspect there's something else behind all this). But, seriously, if you want to curb the problem, hit the people who hire them harder. Make it hurt. We can start with Nunes's family farm and Trump's properties. But, be prepared for the backlash when prices start increasing on everything...
      - masonic 8y ago
        Many, not most. Most visa overstays are from outside Latin America.
        dorchadas 8y ago
        Even if that's true currently (and the statistics are fairly out of date, but it's pretty close to half and half either way), 2018 marked the seventh year in a row that overstays eclipsed illegal border crossings. It's also worth acknowledging that border crossings have been decreasing regularly.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    Has there been a wall the size proposed that had efficacy as declared? I’m genuinely asking and not mocking. I’m uneducated about the effectiveness of walls.
    - thatoneuser 8y ago
      Sure, the great wall was a much more logistically complex feat that had great success. It wasn't perfect by any means (nothing is) but it's rate of failure was very very low and it's successes were very valuable for China. Adding modern amenities (supplemental drone surveillance, satellite, electric monitoring, etc) and it's pretty clear the wall will be effective, the question is simply how effective. There are other walls you can look up. I think the easiest proof that walls work is to ask - if they didn't why do people and countries continue to build them?
      - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        Actually I looked it up on r/AskHistorians where the veracity of the Great Wall was queried multiple times and ... in nuance, no, it wasn’t actually effective against nomadic invasion, which would be the sort of thing America is presumably threatened by. I know this is a very casual source, so if you have any other, harder sources for your claims please present them.
        thatoneuser 8y ago
        What's the evidence they presented to support the idea that it didn't stop nomadic invasions? The Mongolian were made of smallish tribes that rode around on horse. I can't imagine that being a force that easily circumvented the great wall. I know the end of the wall wasn't a very secure area, but that's because obviously there's a lack of wall.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > What's the evidence they presented to support the idea that it didn't stop nomadic invasions? Seems to me the most obvious evidence is the Yuan Dynasty.
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  I believe it's more a matter of perception of the Democrats refusing to compromise than it is about a wall. Sure, there are some Republicans that hold the wall as an important single issue, but the vast majority of single-issue voters that I know don't set their allegiances based on that particular one. From where I sit, this is a matter of the Democrats preferring to put the brakes on everything rather than give on this one, individual issue. Further, I don't think that the majority of Democrat legislators are opposed to "the wall" at base - they're opposed to Trump and his policies in general. It's a game of chicken, as others have said. Whichever side gives in cannot expect to get their way on anything for the next two years at the very least.
- masonic 8y ago
  The lack of a wall attracts attempts to smuggle and makes it easier for gangs to sell migrants on their snuggling services.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

What are the desires of the right? Why do they desire a wall? Is it possible to make a compromise between the wall and the reasons why the wall is desired?

thatoneuser 8y ago
I think they want a permanent and reliable way to minimize illegal immigration. I doubt there's much room for compromise, as there's been nothing proposed which would have the efficacy of a wall without a lot of downsides.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  Unfortunately, given that the cartels have tunneling down to a science, I wouldn't really call the wall "reliable".
  - thatoneuser 8y ago
    Where's your source for that, keeping in mind overall volume and effecacy?
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_tunnel#US-Mexico https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_tunnel#US-Mexico
  - dorchadas 8y ago
    And don't most undocumented immigrants first enter legally and then just don't leave? I know several Irish immigrants who've done that (though I bet nobody would call them 'illegal", which is what leads me to suspect there's something else behind all this). But, seriously, if you want to curb the problem, hit the people who hire them harder. Make it hurt. We can start with Nunes's family farm and Trump's properties. But, be prepared for the backlash when prices start increasing on everything...
    - masonic 8y ago
      Many, not most. Most visa overstays are from outside Latin America.
      - dorchadas 8y ago
        Even if that's true currently (and the statistics are fairly out of date, but it's pretty close to half and half either way), 2018 marked the seventh year in a row that overstays eclipsed illegal border crossings. It's also worth acknowledging that border crossings have been decreasing regularly.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  Has there been a wall the size proposed that had efficacy as declared? I’m genuinely asking and not mocking. I’m uneducated about the effectiveness of walls.
  - thatoneuser 8y ago
    Sure, the great wall was a much more logistically complex feat that had great success. It wasn't perfect by any means (nothing is) but it's rate of failure was very very low and it's successes were very valuable for China. Adding modern amenities (supplemental drone surveillance, satellite, electric monitoring, etc) and it's pretty clear the wall will be effective, the question is simply how effective. There are other walls you can look up. I think the easiest proof that walls work is to ask - if they didn't why do people and countries continue to build them?
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      Actually I looked it up on r/AskHistorians where the veracity of the Great Wall was queried multiple times and ... in nuance, no, it wasn’t actually effective against nomadic invasion, which would be the sort of thing America is presumably threatened by. I know this is a very casual source, so if you have any other, harder sources for your claims please present them.
      - thatoneuser 8y ago
        What's the evidence they presented to support the idea that it didn't stop nomadic invasions? The Mongolian were made of smallish tribes that rode around on horse. I can't imagine that being a force that easily circumvented the great wall. I know the end of the wall wasn't a very secure area, but that's because obviously there's a lack of wall.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > What's the evidence they presented to support the idea that it didn't stop nomadic invasions? Seems to me the most obvious evidence is the Yuan Dynasty.
LyndsySimon 8y ago
I believe it's more a matter of perception of the Democrats refusing to compromise than it is about a wall. Sure, there are some Republicans that hold the wall as an important single issue, but the vast majority of single-issue voters that I know don't set their allegiances based on that particular one. From where I sit, this is a matter of the Democrats preferring to put the brakes on everything rather than give on this one, individual issue. Further, I don't think that the majority of Democrat legislators are opposed to "the wall" at base - they're opposed to Trump and his policies in general. It's a game of chicken, as others have said. Whichever side gives in cannot expect to get their way on anything for the next two years at the very least.
masonic 8y ago
The lack of a wall attracts attempts to smuggle and makes it easier for gangs to sell migrants on their snuggling services.