10 ms·

And yet many services rely on SSN for identity verification in the US (e.g. banks, telecoms, etc.)

gtirloni 8y ago
You mean they rely solely on someone dictating a SSN number? That's insane. They should ask for a official ID with photo, as the very minimum. Is that something that goes against the American culture? The other day I had to give all 10 fingerprints to renew my driver's license (location: South America) and nobody seemed to care.
- mplewis 8y ago
  That'll be leaked eventually, too.
  - gtirloni 8y ago
    That's a fact of life. I'm talking about how they are determining identity. Just asking for a SSN number is mostly like dealing with anonymous people (thus my question about culture).
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  America historically was not very federalized, and being able to just abandon your life and move out west is a key part of the country's mythology, if not the DNA of the country. So there have always been attempts to resist a national ID system, and the SSN was originally not supposed to be used for this purpose. Of course in 2019 this is basically a moot point if you want to be integrated into society, but even then there are people who are legitimately not integrated into the modern US economy by choice.
  - Jedi72 8y ago
    I have thought about this a little bit. If this is something Americans believe in, its time to make it official. Make a legal proceeding where you can "start again", so that nobody from your old life can trace you.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      Formalizing the process kind of misses the point.
    - solotronics 8y ago
      From what I can tell you can go to California and say you are an immigrant and get an ID under any arbitrary name. It seems you can do anything with this so it's essentially a new identity. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/undocumented-immigrants-bank-accounts/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/undocumented-immigra...
  - ataturk 8y ago
    I didn't have an SSN until my early teens ( sometime in the 1980s) because it wasn't required for my parents to claim me on their taxes until then. The IRS fucked us, as usual. I was a free American for a decent amount of my life. The constant drumbeat of more and more big government only ever ends in mass death.
- jandrese 8y ago
  SSN is often used as an account verification, which is a problem because social engineers can get your SSN pretty easily. It's hard for a phone bank operator to ask for a photo ID.
  - __david__ 8y ago
    I used to give out fake SSNs to everyone that insisted on one (normally I just leave that part of a form blank). The first time someone asked for the last four digits of one of my fakes I had to scramble to remember what random number I had given out. I never considered that might actually be better security.
    - jandrese 8y ago
      Downside of this solution is that many companies ask for it so they can do a credit check. Giving them a fake number could technically be fraud.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  We don't require a full set of fingerprints to renew your driver's license, but we do require proof of citizenship and residence. As a practical matter, for most people that means birth certificate and a utility bill with their address on it. I assume the fingerprints thing is for future crime solving?
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    A giant database of fingerprints is more likely to "solve" crimes than solve them. This statistical mistake even has a name: "the prosecutor's fallacy". (It could be that police detectives deserve to name this trope more than prosecutors do, but it's probably too late now.)
- blancheneige 8y ago
  there are places here that will let you vote for the president of the united states without requiring proof that you are a US citizen. what do you expect.
  - wtvanhest 8y ago
    That really isn't a big deal since you need to prove residence to register. There are a limited number of votes that can be made. If two people show up saying they are the same person, that will create a red flag.
- LeifCarrotson 8y ago
  > Is that something that goes against the American culture? Conservative Christian fundamentalist groups have, ever since Reagan, likened a national ID card to "the mark of the beast", citing Revelation 13's prophecy that no one could buy or sell goods without the number of the beast, and the reference to God's chosen people that refuse the mark of the Beast. When a small but meaningful fraction of your constituents fervently believe that giving them a national ID literally damns them to Hell, it's a hard sell. Much easier if you attach it to a tool (Social Security) with which they can get money. There's also the angle of State's Rights and whether the federal government can require people to have national ID over just amalgamating the various state IDs. Finally, Americans generally distrust their government. Not without reason, they believe a national ID would reduce their privacy and allow the government to more easily spy on and track them.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Then again, you could be like my uncle. His SSN is 666-66-6666. He's not particularly religious...
    - jrpelkonen 8y ago
      There’s a chance your uncle made that one up himself: “No SSNs with an area number of 666 have been or will be assigned.”[0] [0] https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n2/v69n2p55.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n2/v69n2p55.html
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        There's a chance I made up that uncle myself... it's easier than using Google to find this information.
freshhawk 8y ago
And some places "rely" on knowing a full name or just a phone number. We would call that an error on their part, and I don't see why the same logic doesn't apply here.
- josh2600 8y ago
  It’s risk management. Some products just have greater risk associated with them.
briffle 8y ago
that is what wtvanhest is talking about. If everyone has your social, its no longer considered a secret (like a password) its more like a unique identifier (an email address) just like it was intended to be.
- jgust 8y ago
  When you think about it that way & then combine it with some type of 2FA, it starts to make a lot of sense.
  - axlee 8y ago
    That's how it works in Sweden.
- anonymfus 8y ago
  > its more like a unique identifier AFAIK they are not ever unique
  - TomVDB 8y ago
    Article written in 2014: > To date, 450+ million SSNs have been issued, but with just under 1 billion possible number combinations, there has never been a need to recycle numbers, and the SSA notes that it does "not reassign a Social Security number (SSN) after the number holder's death." https://gizmodo.com/what-happens-to-your-social-security-number-when-you-di-1652151816 https://gizmodo.com/what-happens-to-your-social-security-num...
  - ben509 8y ago
    They're not reliably unique: a nontrivial percentage of the population has multiple numbers associated with them, and a nontrivial percentage of the numbers are associated with multiple people. If you have two systems and you want to correlate data between them, you can use something like the SSN to assist in that process, but usually it will need additional information. Generally you can't use something someone supplies as a shared identifier. You can't start the process of verifying it, after all, without an identifier. You might think of all sorts of ways around this, but they all boil down to either tolerating errors or making the SSN a secondary attribute rather than a bona fide identifier.
jason46 8y ago
Best Buy credit. I never have my card on me, but I can use my credit account with my Soc.
ThomPete 8y ago
But they are not really secret just like your email isnt. Its using it as if it is thats the problem imo

You mean they rely solely on someone dictating a SSN number? That's insane. They should ask for a official ID with photo, as the very minimum. Is that something that goes against the American culture? The other day I had to give all 10 fingerprints to renew my driver's license (location: South America) and nobody seemed to care.

mplewis 8y ago
That'll be leaked eventually, too.
- gtirloni 8y ago
  That's a fact of life. I'm talking about how they are determining identity. Just asking for a SSN number is mostly like dealing with anonymous people (thus my question about culture).
bobthepanda 8y ago
America historically was not very federalized, and being able to just abandon your life and move out west is a key part of the country's mythology, if not the DNA of the country. So there have always been attempts to resist a national ID system, and the SSN was originally not supposed to be used for this purpose. Of course in 2019 this is basically a moot point if you want to be integrated into society, but even then there are people who are legitimately not integrated into the modern US economy by choice.
- Jedi72 8y ago
  I have thought about this a little bit. If this is something Americans believe in, its time to make it official. Make a legal proceeding where you can "start again", so that nobody from your old life can trace you.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Formalizing the process kind of misses the point.
  - solotronics 8y ago
    From what I can tell you can go to California and say you are an immigrant and get an ID under any arbitrary name. It seems you can do anything with this so it's essentially a new identity. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/undocumented-immigrants-bank-accounts/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/undocumented-immigra...
- ataturk 8y ago
  I didn't have an SSN until my early teens ( sometime in the 1980s) because it wasn't required for my parents to claim me on their taxes until then. The IRS fucked us, as usual. I was a free American for a decent amount of my life. The constant drumbeat of more and more big government only ever ends in mass death.
jandrese 8y ago
SSN is often used as an account verification, which is a problem because social engineers can get your SSN pretty easily. It's hard for a phone bank operator to ask for a photo ID.
- __david__ 8y ago
  I used to give out fake SSNs to everyone that insisted on one (normally I just leave that part of a form blank). The first time someone asked for the last four digits of one of my fakes I had to scramble to remember what random number I had given out. I never considered that might actually be better security.
  - jandrese 8y ago
    Downside of this solution is that many companies ask for it so they can do a credit check. Giving them a fake number could technically be fraud.
rootusrootus 8y ago
We don't require a full set of fingerprints to renew your driver's license, but we do require proof of citizenship and residence. As a practical matter, for most people that means birth certificate and a utility bill with their address on it. I assume the fingerprints thing is for future crime solving?
- jessaustin 8y ago
  A giant database of fingerprints is more likely to "solve" crimes than solve them. This statistical mistake even has a name: "the prosecutor's fallacy". (It could be that police detectives deserve to name this trope more than prosecutors do, but it's probably too late now.)
blancheneige 8y ago
there are places here that will let you vote for the president of the united states without requiring proof that you are a US citizen. what do you expect.
- wtvanhest 8y ago
  That really isn't a big deal since you need to prove residence to register. There are a limited number of votes that can be made. If two people show up saying they are the same person, that will create a red flag.
LeifCarrotson 8y ago
> Is that something that goes against the American culture? Conservative Christian fundamentalist groups have, ever since Reagan, likened a national ID card to "the mark of the beast", citing Revelation 13's prophecy that no one could buy or sell goods without the number of the beast, and the reference to God's chosen people that refuse the mark of the Beast. When a small but meaningful fraction of your constituents fervently believe that giving them a national ID literally damns them to Hell, it's a hard sell. Much easier if you attach it to a tool (Social Security) with which they can get money. There's also the angle of State's Rights and whether the federal government can require people to have national ID over just amalgamating the various state IDs. Finally, Americans generally distrust their government. Not without reason, they believe a national ID would reduce their privacy and allow the government to more easily spy on and track them.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  Then again, you could be like my uncle. His SSN is 666-66-6666. He's not particularly religious...
  - jrpelkonen 8y ago
    There’s a chance your uncle made that one up himself: “No SSNs with an area number of 666 have been or will be assigned.”[0] [0] https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n2/v69n2p55.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n2/v69n2p55.html
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      There's a chance I made up that uncle myself... it's easier than using Google to find this information.

freshhawk 8y ago

And some places "rely" on knowing a full name or just a phone number. We would call that an error on their part, and I don't see why the same logic doesn't apply here.

josh2600 8y ago
It’s risk management. Some products just have greater risk associated with them.

briffle 8y ago

that is what wtvanhest is talking about. If everyone has your social, its no longer considered a secret (like a password) its more like a unique identifier (an email address) just like it was intended to be.

jgust 8y ago
When you think about it that way & then combine it with some type of 2FA, it starts to make a lot of sense.
- axlee 8y ago
  That's how it works in Sweden.
anonymfus 8y ago
> its more like a unique identifier AFAIK they are not ever unique
- TomVDB 8y ago
  Article written in 2014: > To date, 450+ million SSNs have been issued, but with just under 1 billion possible number combinations, there has never been a need to recycle numbers, and the SSA notes that it does "not reassign a Social Security number (SSN) after the number holder's death." https://gizmodo.com/what-happens-to-your-social-security-number-when-you-di-1652151816 https://gizmodo.com/what-happens-to-your-social-security-num...
- ben509 8y ago
  They're not reliably unique: a nontrivial percentage of the population has multiple numbers associated with them, and a nontrivial percentage of the numbers are associated with multiple people. If you have two systems and you want to correlate data between them, you can use something like the SSN to assist in that process, but usually it will need additional information. Generally you can't use something someone supplies as a shared identifier. You can't start the process of verifying it, after all, without an identifier. You might think of all sorts of ways around this, but they all boil down to either tolerating errors or making the SSN a secondary attribute rather than a bona fide identifier.

jason46 8y ago

Best Buy credit. I never have my card on me, but I can use my credit account with my Soc.

ThomPete 8y ago

But they are not really secret just like your email isnt. Its using it as if it is thats the problem imo