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In Germany we already have an UBI-like system where people without a job are being paid social security. It's far away from those $30k you mention, and they nee

by est31 8y ago

In Germany we already have an UBI-like system where people without a job are being paid social security. It's far away from those $30k you mention, and they need to live very frugally, but you are fed, clothed, and won't freeze in winter as you have a place to live. There are two main differences of this system from true UBI: First, it's only paid to people who don't have any money at all (beyond a couple thousand euros). Any car, flat, house, expensive TV, etc. that you own is subject to that rule and if you possess those, you are required to first sell them. Second, it's not additional. Once you do make money, your income will only rise if you make more than what you'd have gotten from the social services. This locks in quite many people into this system because even if they would seek employment, maybe what they get in the end is only €100 more than without the social services, but they gotta get up every day at 6 am.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Right; that's an example of doing it wrong. Sure it helps people who would be suffering and that's good. But it disincentivises them. It doesn't allow them to save.
- est31 8y ago
  Yup, that's (part of) why I think that UBI is needed.
- jecxjo 8y ago
  Its not about disincentivizing them, its about not providing them with applicable skills that would make their production worth more than basic hand outs. It can be demoralizing when you realize that flipping burger is worth $100 a week more than doing absolutely nothing, but we don't live in a world where a burger is worth $40 that would allow them to be paid more. Younger people tend to not have a real concept of money and what it really takes to make it. What needs to be added along with being paid for existing, is training and potential job opportunities to be setup to get them off of the system. I think that most people in these programs would have no issue being given the ability to work. The major issue with be with people who will object to getting jobs they are "too good for." Hopefully those people are few and far between.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Maybe. In a world of increasing automation (explosive in the last 15 years) there's not much value in training for anything less than medicine or engineering. And US has 30 million flipping burgers. When that's automated too, there's not many that could retrain to be engineers. And we don't need 30M more engineers anyway. That's why UBI is a hot topic. Its a way out of a collapse.
    - astazangasta 8y ago
      Automation has not been explosive in the last 15 years, I'm not sure why you think this. Productivity growth (the measure of increasing automation) has been the lowest its been in decades, see here: https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2017/01/23/20170127_GDP_Obama2.jpg https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user330... As for whether we need 30 million engineers, thats entirely up to what we want to be as a society. If you don't think we can come up with engineering work for 30 million people I beg to differ.
      - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        Not a good measure, because so many are reduced to service industries. Factory automation has been a headlong rush to automation for decades. We're down 5M factory jobs since 2000, to something like 13M. And the rest are slated to go as automation becomes cheaper. When factories 'come back' from overseas, its only because now automation is even cheaper than foreign labor.
      - est31 8y ago
        This video about how an electric motor is made has almost solely machines doing the work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zttC2x9nMEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zttC2x9nMEw
    - mrkstu 8y ago
      A magnitude lower- its 3 actually: https://www.statista.com/statistics/196630/number-of-employees-in-us-fast-food-restaurants-since-2002/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/196630/number-of-employe... Less than I would of thought- considering it used to be a rite of passage for many teenagers.

by est31 8y ago

JoeAltmaier 8y ago

Right; that's an example of doing it wrong. Sure it helps people who would be suffering and that's good. But it disincentivises them. It doesn't allow them to save.

est31 8y ago
Yup, that's (part of) why I think that UBI is needed.
jecxjo 8y ago
Its not about disincentivizing them, its about not providing them with applicable skills that would make their production worth more than basic hand outs. It can be demoralizing when you realize that flipping burger is worth $100 a week more than doing absolutely nothing, but we don't live in a world where a burger is worth $40 that would allow them to be paid more. Younger people tend to not have a real concept of money and what it really takes to make it. What needs to be added along with being paid for existing, is training and potential job opportunities to be setup to get them off of the system. I think that most people in these programs would have no issue being given the ability to work. The major issue with be with people who will object to getting jobs they are "too good for." Hopefully those people are few and far between.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Maybe. In a world of increasing automation (explosive in the last 15 years) there's not much value in training for anything less than medicine or engineering. And US has 30 million flipping burgers. When that's automated too, there's not many that could retrain to be engineers. And we don't need 30M more engineers anyway. That's why UBI is a hot topic. Its a way out of a collapse.
  - astazangasta 8y ago
    Automation has not been explosive in the last 15 years, I'm not sure why you think this. Productivity growth (the measure of increasing automation) has been the lowest its been in decades, see here: https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2017/01/23/20170127_GDP_Obama2.jpg https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user330... As for whether we need 30 million engineers, thats entirely up to what we want to be as a society. If you don't think we can come up with engineering work for 30 million people I beg to differ.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Not a good measure, because so many are reduced to service industries. Factory automation has been a headlong rush to automation for decades. We're down 5M factory jobs since 2000, to something like 13M. And the rest are slated to go as automation becomes cheaper. When factories 'come back' from overseas, its only because now automation is even cheaper than foreign labor.
    - est31 8y ago
      This video about how an electric motor is made has almost solely machines doing the work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zttC2x9nMEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zttC2x9nMEw
  - mrkstu 8y ago
    A magnitude lower- its 3 actually: https://www.statista.com/statistics/196630/number-of-employees-in-us-fast-food-restaurants-since-2002/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/196630/number-of-employe... Less than I would of thought- considering it used to be a rite of passage for many teenagers.