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>Is generating trillions in economic activity and allowing billions of people to be employed and connected not adding value? By itself? No, not at all. At leas

>Is generating trillions in economic activity and allowing billions of people to be employed and connected not adding value? By itself? No, not at all. At least not more valuable than giving the same people the same money for doing nothing. >What would you rather have people do? Literally anything not actively harmful.

manigandham 8y ago
You seem to misunderstand how marketing works. Creating customers is how companies grow and requires advertising, so creating those channels is filling a business need. Throwing money at people doesn't change that need. >> Literally anything not actively harmful. "Literally" must be the most overused word in English today, but a vague description like that is completely unproductive to any discussion and doesn't even begin to get over the subjective interpretation of "harmful".
- cyborgx7 8y ago
  You seem to misunderstand what this thread is about. This thread is not about "marketing". It is about personalised targeted ads.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    Yea I get it. Advertising is a subset of marketing, and efficiently connecting people with a message inherently involves targeting. There's a reason 2 of the biggest companies on the planet are ad networks.
    - cyborgx7 8y ago
      >efficiently connecting people with a message inherently involves targeting The point of this thread is that maybe it doesn't.
      - manigandham 8y ago
        What's the evidence? This article? That's not the reason why, the whole EU market is down and there are just fewer but larger ad campaigns which go to the sites with the biggest reach. It's regulation causing consolidation.
        cyborgx7 8y ago
        The GDPR is a great piece of legislation, that significantly improves people's privacy. Your arguing about how terrible it is will not convince anybody that your industry's practices aren't evil. They will only reinforce it.
        manigandham 8y ago
        Maybe you should look me up first: https://twitter.com/search?q=manigandham%20regulation https://twitter.com/search?q=manigandham%20regulation I'm one of the few in the industry who actually spent time and money on regulation. I've met with Senators and major CMOs to make it happen. It's not that simple. GDPR has good intent but is poorly executed and has no measurable effect on privacy because those politicians fail to understand the market they're regulating. This is now playing out again in the recent copyright directives. Marketing and advertising are drivers of the economy and there's nothing inherently wrong with either of them. All regulation also creates and solves problems, one of which is consolidation. Nothing inherently problematic in that either. Targeted advertising definitely needs fixing, but that's separate from privacy and there are ways to do both while also solving for other issues like fraud, political influence, mass surveillance, and more. "Evil, harmful, just dies" are useless for discussion. I suggest dropping the immature rhetoric if you actually want to have a productive conversation and perhaps create the change you want to see.
        cyborgx7 8y ago
        >I'm one of the few in the industry who actually spent time and money on regulation. I've met with Senators and major CMOs to make it happen. It's not that simple. GDPR has good intent but is poorly executed and has no measurable effect on privacy because those politicians fail to understand the market they're regulating. This is now playing out again in the recent copyright directives. I'm reading that you are a member of industry Lobbying to get influence on regulation of your industry. And that is somehow supposed to make me trust you more. GDPR is exactly as far reaching as it should be. The only problem with it is that people aren't following it yet to the letter, and I hope there will be some heavy fines for those breaking the law. >Targeted advertising definitely needs fixing, but that's separate from privacy Privacy is inherently incompatible with targeted advertising, and the industry will have to die for us to get our rights. >"Evil, harmful, just dies" are useless for discussion. I suggest dropping the immature rhetoric if you actually want to have a productive conversation and perhaps create the change you want to see. I'm not interested in having a "productive discussion" with you and find a compromise if you represent the targeted advertising industry. The targeted advertising industry is the political enemy. And I want it to die.
- bradyo 8y ago
  "Filling business needs" is also not an objectively useful thing. There are many businesses I would prefer not advertise (e.g. cigarette and gun companies) and many more industries that are nearly zero-sum (and thus advertising just moves a fixed pool of money around). I'm not sure where this idea that growth for the sake of growth is inherently good came from. In fact, we've demonstrated many ways it's harmful.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    Because the human population grows, so concepts such as societies and economies follow. It's that simple. You can run a small business that remains at a steady state but you still need constant customers to remain viable, and even if every company stayed small there would be new ones started, so growth is inherent. Marketing spend is a proportion of GDP so it'll scale along with it, and is thus not zero-sum. As for regulation, that is needed in the industry and why we have limits on certain categories.

manigandham 8y ago

You seem to misunderstand how marketing works. Creating customers is how companies grow and requires advertising, so creating those channels is filling a business need. Throwing money at people doesn't change that need. >> Literally anything not actively harmful. "Literally" must be the most overused word in English today, but a vague description like that is completely unproductive to any discussion and doesn't even begin to get over the subjective interpretation of "harmful".

cyborgx7 8y ago
You seem to misunderstand what this thread is about. This thread is not about "marketing". It is about personalised targeted ads.
- manigandham 8y ago
  Yea I get it. Advertising is a subset of marketing, and efficiently connecting people with a message inherently involves targeting. There's a reason 2 of the biggest companies on the planet are ad networks.
  - cyborgx7 8y ago
    >efficiently connecting people with a message inherently involves targeting The point of this thread is that maybe it doesn't.
    - manigandham 8y ago
      What's the evidence? This article? That's not the reason why, the whole EU market is down and there are just fewer but larger ad campaigns which go to the sites with the biggest reach. It's regulation causing consolidation.
      - cyborgx7 8y ago
        The GDPR is a great piece of legislation, that significantly improves people's privacy. Your arguing about how terrible it is will not convince anybody that your industry's practices aren't evil. They will only reinforce it.
        manigandham 8y ago
        Maybe you should look me up first: https://twitter.com/search?q=manigandham%20regulation https://twitter.com/search?q=manigandham%20regulation I'm one of the few in the industry who actually spent time and money on regulation. I've met with Senators and major CMOs to make it happen. It's not that simple. GDPR has good intent but is poorly executed and has no measurable effect on privacy because those politicians fail to understand the market they're regulating. This is now playing out again in the recent copyright directives. Marketing and advertising are drivers of the economy and there's nothing inherently wrong with either of them. All regulation also creates and solves problems, one of which is consolidation. Nothing inherently problematic in that either. Targeted advertising definitely needs fixing, but that's separate from privacy and there are ways to do both while also solving for other issues like fraud, political influence, mass surveillance, and more. "Evil, harmful, just dies" are useless for discussion. I suggest dropping the immature rhetoric if you actually want to have a productive conversation and perhaps create the change you want to see.
        cyborgx7 8y ago
        >I'm one of the few in the industry who actually spent time and money on regulation. I've met with Senators and major CMOs to make it happen. It's not that simple. GDPR has good intent but is poorly executed and has no measurable effect on privacy because those politicians fail to understand the market they're regulating. This is now playing out again in the recent copyright directives. I'm reading that you are a member of industry Lobbying to get influence on regulation of your industry. And that is somehow supposed to make me trust you more. GDPR is exactly as far reaching as it should be. The only problem with it is that people aren't following it yet to the letter, and I hope there will be some heavy fines for those breaking the law. >Targeted advertising definitely needs fixing, but that's separate from privacy Privacy is inherently incompatible with targeted advertising, and the industry will have to die for us to get our rights. >"Evil, harmful, just dies" are useless for discussion. I suggest dropping the immature rhetoric if you actually want to have a productive conversation and perhaps create the change you want to see. I'm not interested in having a "productive discussion" with you and find a compromise if you represent the targeted advertising industry. The targeted advertising industry is the political enemy. And I want it to die.
bradyo 8y ago
"Filling business needs" is also not an objectively useful thing. There are many businesses I would prefer not advertise (e.g. cigarette and gun companies) and many more industries that are nearly zero-sum (and thus advertising just moves a fixed pool of money around). I'm not sure where this idea that growth for the sake of growth is inherently good came from. In fact, we've demonstrated many ways it's harmful.
- manigandham 8y ago
  Because the human population grows, so concepts such as societies and economies follow. It's that simple. You can run a small business that remains at a steady state but you still need constant customers to remain viable, and even if every company stayed small there would be new ones started, so growth is inherent. Marketing spend is a proportion of GDP so it'll scale along with it, and is thus not zero-sum. As for regulation, that is needed in the industry and why we have limits on certain categories.