7 ms·

The Brexit promise was to leave the EU and open better trading options with the rest of the world. Outside of the EU, there is no issue reducing VAT, customs fe

The Brexit promise was to leave the EU and open better trading options with the rest of the world. Outside of the EU, there is no issue reducing VAT, customs fees etc. In fact, WTO rules even allow more competitive options between countries if the UK chooses to lower associated fees in the WTO. Additional the UK is able to negotiate trade deals for it's own interests rather than concerns about protectionism for the EU. None of this can be done by the UK in the EU.

walkingolof 8y ago
>The Brexit promise was to leave the EU and open better >trading options with the rest of the world. One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country.
- kristianc 8y ago
  > One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country. One would think, but the EU has been trying and failing to secure any kind of a trade deal with the US, largely due to Europe's instinctive love of protectionism.
  - hkt 8y ago
    protectionism/standards. Remember, our cheese doesn't come out of a tube, usually.
    - robin_reala 8y ago
      I was going to use Primula as a counter-example, but then I remembered it’s Norwegian.
    - kristianc 8y ago
      If I was French I'd be convinced that our finest Brillat-savarin would outcompete anything that came out of a tube. I don't think it's a lack of plastic cheese alternatives that has people buying French cheese.
- robertony 8y ago
  > One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country. The EU has a history of being really slow at negotiating trade deals unfortunately. Further, the EU enforces VAT fees and implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses, even when no EU competitors exist. These fees have a trendency to reduce economic activity within the EU and prevent cheaper alterantives from outside of the EU being effective as they end up becoming a similar prices or more expensive when the customs fees are applied (despite trying to pass on the savings from signficantly lower production/service costs with less gross income than an EU company which results in a similarly priced product that the customer sees). Even with a worse trade deal than the EU, the UK can stand to benefit because it won't be required to tack expensive fees on top for the purposes of protectionism of industries that may not even be in the UK to begin with.
  - walkingolof 8y ago
    >implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses Had to look it up, looks like 85:ish % of the UK trade is with the EU.
    - hardlianotion 8y ago
      It is not. Under half of exports are to Europe, and declining. Trade with EU is important, however. https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851 https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Sum...
    - robertony 8y ago
      Sorry, I should have phrased that better. When I said "reduced economic activity in the EU", I mean as a whole. This is an over simplfiication, but imagine a situation where everything is 20% more expensive than the normal asking price, this leads to less purchases being made as a whole. It doesn't matter if you're purchasing from outside the EU too, because it's still 20% more expensive. The overall economic activity in such an area is simply reduced. The trade numbers simply are the way they are because importing doesn't really reduce the costs either. It should also be noted that exporting products outside of the EU has additional fees that make us less competitive than the alternatives outside of the EU too, so our exports are impacted too.
- mattmanser 8y ago
  Think of 27 people negotiating, all with very different agendas, versus one person with a clear agenda. Why do you believe that the EU would be in a better position? It's like a rat king when it comes to negotiating, 27 countries pulling in different directions all with different desires.
  - walkingolof 8y ago
    Access to the second largest common market in the world ?
  - rmc 8y ago
    Because the EU has a lot more to offer than the UK alone.
    - bromuro 8y ago
      The UE? I see just countries struggling with their own economies, and fighting against UE austerity rules.
    - mattmanser 8y ago
      It also has a lot wider range of industries to protect, so if the UK would be happy in scrapping food subsidies to let African food be competitive in our markets, but other countries like France want to retain subsidies for protectionism of their farmers, it's no dice. That scenario is exactly what happened in the Doha Development Round. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Development_Round https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Development_Round
rmc 8y ago
The Brexit promise was that there would be no downsides, that there would still be frictionless trade with the EU (which so much of the UK economy relies on), that nonUK EU citizens in the UK would have to leave, but UK citizens in the EU27 would be able to stay there.
rswail 8y ago
Except that the UK is a small island off the side of the third largest trading bloc in the world. Why would anyone want to negotiate only with the UK? Why would Japanese companies want to continue to manufacture vehicles in the UK when it will only support its local market? The UK is a relatively small market, its only advantages were stability (now lost), having the City (a tax haven, with branches in British off-shore locations), and access to the EU. You've still got the City, but EU finance will move to other capitals.

walkingolof 8y ago

>The Brexit promise was to leave the EU and open better >trading options with the rest of the world. One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country.

kristianc 8y ago
> One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country. One would think, but the EU has been trying and failing to secure any kind of a trade deal with the US, largely due to Europe's instinctive love of protectionism.
- hkt 8y ago
  protectionism/standards. Remember, our cheese doesn't come out of a tube, usually.
  - robin_reala 8y ago
    I was going to use Primula as a counter-example, but then I remembered it’s Norwegian.
  - kristianc 8y ago
    If I was French I'd be convinced that our finest Brillat-savarin would outcompete anything that came out of a tube. I don't think it's a lack of plastic cheese alternatives that has people buying French cheese.
robertony 8y ago
> One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country. The EU has a history of being really slow at negotiating trade deals unfortunately. Further, the EU enforces VAT fees and implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses, even when no EU competitors exist. These fees have a trendency to reduce economic activity within the EU and prevent cheaper alterantives from outside of the EU being effective as they end up becoming a similar prices or more expensive when the customs fees are applied (despite trying to pass on the savings from signficantly lower production/service costs with less gross income than an EU company which results in a similarly priced product that the customer sees). Even with a worse trade deal than the EU, the UK can stand to benefit because it won't be required to tack expensive fees on top for the purposes of protectionism of industries that may not even be in the UK to begin with.
- walkingolof 8y ago
  >implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses Had to look it up, looks like 85:ish % of the UK trade is with the EU.
  - hardlianotion 8y ago
    It is not. Under half of exports are to Europe, and declining. Trade with EU is important, however. https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851 https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Sum...
  - robertony 8y ago
    Sorry, I should have phrased that better. When I said "reduced economic activity in the EU", I mean as a whole. This is an over simplfiication, but imagine a situation where everything is 20% more expensive than the normal asking price, this leads to less purchases being made as a whole. It doesn't matter if you're purchasing from outside the EU too, because it's still 20% more expensive. The overall economic activity in such an area is simply reduced. The trade numbers simply are the way they are because importing doesn't really reduce the costs either. It should also be noted that exporting products outside of the EU has additional fees that make us less competitive than the alternatives outside of the EU too, so our exports are impacted too.
mattmanser 8y ago
Think of 27 people negotiating, all with very different agendas, versus one person with a clear agenda. Why do you believe that the EU would be in a better position? It's like a rat king when it comes to negotiating, 27 countries pulling in different directions all with different desires.
- walkingolof 8y ago
  Access to the second largest common market in the world ?
- rmc 8y ago
  Because the EU has a lot more to offer than the UK alone.
  - bromuro 8y ago
    The UE? I see just countries struggling with their own economies, and fighting against UE austerity rules.
  - mattmanser 8y ago
    It also has a lot wider range of industries to protect, so if the UK would be happy in scrapping food subsidies to let African food be competitive in our markets, but other countries like France want to retain subsidies for protectionism of their farmers, it's no dice. That scenario is exactly what happened in the Doha Development Round. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Development_Round https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Development_Round

rmc 8y ago

The Brexit promise was that there would be no downsides, that there would still be frictionless trade with the EU (which so much of the UK economy relies on), that nonUK EU citizens in the UK would have to leave, but UK citizens in the EU27 would be able to stay there.

rswail 8y ago

Except that the UK is a small island off the side of the third largest trading bloc in the world. Why would anyone want to negotiate only with the UK? Why would Japanese companies want to continue to manufacture vehicles in the UK when it will only support its local market? The UK is a relatively small market, its only advantages were stability (now lost), having the City (a tax haven, with branches in British off-shore locations), and access to the EU. You've still got the City, but EU finance will move to other capitals.