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All this is definitely true, but in my opinion not ideal. LuaTeX adds a significant layer of complexity to an already way-too-complex system. At this point we

All this is definitely true, but in my opinion not ideal. LuaTeX adds a significant layer of complexity to an already way-too-complex system. At this point we might want to step back and wonder why this has become so hard. TeX is a poor foundation to build upon, so I don't think LuaTeX, despite being the best solution currently, is the right direction to explore.

_emacsomancer_ 8y ago
> TeX is a poor foundation to build upon I still disagree with this characterisation. TeX is a really beautiful solution to a non-trivial problem, and its implementation in WEB is really quite interesting. LaTeX adds quite a lot of complexity and messiness, but does also add very useful functionality and abstraction away from low-level typesetting. Org-mode and similar 'mark-up' languages are very nice in more rigidly-defined domains, but they don't have the power of (La)TeX for academic writing. I don't see any real 'competitors' to (La)TeX that aren't themselves just adding layers on top of TeX (for better or worse). TeX is nearly as old as (original) Emacs and has similarly become complex in perhaps not-entirely-ideal ways, but - like Emacs - there's no substitute.
- Ambrevar 8y ago
  I'm not criticizing the power of TeX in terms of typesetting, I'm only referring to the _language_ here. (And you are aboslutely right, Org and other markup languages are not competing with TeX.) Imaging the capabilities of TeX with a good programming language. I don't find WEB beautiful. In my opinion, literate programming (at least in this case) is a pretext to hide a terrible, unexpressive programming language. As you're saying, Emacs had the good taste to use a Lisp back in those days, so it really is a pity that TeX didn't.
  - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
    Well, I agree a Lisp or at least more Lispy interface with TeX would be much preferable. But I am dubious how anything comparable to TeX and the TeX-ecosystem would be developed at this point.
    - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
      Additional: I did come across https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-typesetting https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-typesetting , though its homepage seems to have disappeared.
      - Ambrevar 8y ago
        Nice! Thanks for sharing!
    - Ambrevar 8y ago
      This would be extremely demanding a project indeed, which is probably one no such thing has really taken off in many decades.

_emacsomancer_ 8y ago

> TeX is a poor foundation to build upon I still disagree with this characterisation. TeX is a really beautiful solution to a non-trivial problem, and its implementation in WEB is really quite interesting. LaTeX adds quite a lot of complexity and messiness, but does also add very useful functionality and abstraction away from low-level typesetting. Org-mode and similar 'mark-up' languages are very nice in more rigidly-defined domains, but they don't have the power of (La)TeX for academic writing. I don't see any real 'competitors' to (La)TeX that aren't themselves just adding layers on top of TeX (for better or worse). TeX is nearly as old as (original) Emacs and has similarly become complex in perhaps not-entirely-ideal ways, but - like Emacs - there's no substitute.

Ambrevar 8y ago
I'm not criticizing the power of TeX in terms of typesetting, I'm only referring to the _language_ here. (And you are aboslutely right, Org and other markup languages are not competing with TeX.) Imaging the capabilities of TeX with a good programming language. I don't find WEB beautiful. In my opinion, literate programming (at least in this case) is a pretext to hide a terrible, unexpressive programming language. As you're saying, Emacs had the good taste to use a Lisp back in those days, so it really is a pity that TeX didn't.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
  Well, I agree a Lisp or at least more Lispy interface with TeX would be much preferable. But I am dubious how anything comparable to TeX and the TeX-ecosystem would be developed at this point.
  - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
    Additional: I did come across https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-typesetting https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-typesetting , though its homepage seems to have disappeared.
    - Ambrevar 8y ago
      Nice! Thanks for sharing!
  - Ambrevar 8y ago
    This would be extremely demanding a project indeed, which is probably one no such thing has really taken off in many decades.