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The EU is quite popular among most of its other citizens. (Half) the UK citizenry was an outlier in that regard.

by jpster 8y ago

sonnyblarney 8y ago
No, this is simply not true. In France, the EU is viewed with even wider skepticism than in the UK. Just before Brexit - the majority of France, Germany, UK and Spain had negative views of the EU [1] Popular sentiment towards the EU has been declining steadily until Brexit, during which it's shot up somewhat, as EU-wide press does their best to inject fear into the situation - but without this existential angst, the trend-line is clearly going down. This is also obvious from recent Eurosceptic political trends. Consider that just this week, the far right AfD in Germany, has just announced they would like to move Germany out of the EU as a material policy. They have about 15% of the vote. They've always been sceptic, but there has never been discussion in Germany about exit before. But it is of course nuanced: + Wether or not citizens want to 'leave' is a different question. + Wether or not people would opt to 'join' were they not members otherwise, is also a different question. + Wether or not they can separate the notion of 'EU' and 'Europe' is another question. For example, Italy, Europe's 3rd largest economy has just elected a Eurosceptic party, but they have no real inclination to leave. For Italians, to 'leave the EU' is to 'leave Europe' and because they see themselves as European, they may not chose to leave the EU. (I see that as a false equivalence, that the EU is not Europe, just a body politic and set of treaties.) + Nations that have the most direct battles with the EU, for example Poland, have the highest rating! Make no mistake - though material 'exit' may be stronger in the UK than elsewhere, anti-EU sentiment is strong across Europe, and the overall trend-line is bad news. Aside from political issues, there are serious economic concerns about the Euro, and that it's a 'trap' for peripheral nations unless there is deeper political integration (there won't be), and even if there was, they would never agree on how to print money anyhow. And finally - even issues for which the EU can't fairly be blamed ... they will take the heat for in many cases. The kind of populism you see in France right now with the Gilets Jaunes which is leaderless, has no ideology, there's nobody to negotiate with, nobody to appease, nobody really knows for sure why it's happening, it's just 'angst' ... this is going to spill over into Bruxelles. You'll see arbitrary movements like this. That most of Europe's current elite are fairly pro-EU, and that the current political bodies are fairly 'on the same page' should not be interpreted as populist favour overall for the EU. To anyone who thinks that Euroscepticism is a marginal issue, have a look at the Wikipedia entry, it's enlightening, and also gives some insight into all of the different nuances of it. [1] http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-more-favorable-toward-eu/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-mo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dijit 8y ago
  Ok, You've made reasoned arguments and been downvoted, and for that I'm sorry. I'm going to attack the core of your argument, but please understand that I'm not attacking you personally. -- The EU has an executive body that is not directly elected, they are, however, elected. They're elected by the representatives that you and I directly elect. This is a stark contrast to the house of lords, who are truly unelected by any elected representative or even the public directly. -- EU popularity is a bit stronger in central europe, even more so with brexit looming. The thing is: the EU doesn't have PR of any sort, they're a transparent organisation but that makes it opaque for many people since the content isn't distilled- we rely on media to distill it for us. The good news is that the information is always available and you're able to rebuff the media quite easily. That's why brexit lies are easy to debunk but impossible to get a platform for in the UK. (unless you're the guardian, but that is preaching to the choir as guardian readers tend to be pro-EU) If the EU did have a PR campaign, it would be easy for the UK media to cry about how the EU is propagandizing using our tax money. And that would be true. So they're in a catch-22. The _good_ thing about brexit for the rest of the EU, is that outside of the UK the media are picking up on _our_ media lies and spreading them. I live in Sweden so I get it fairly full blast. The benefits of being in the EU are incredibly evident from the outside. I can't imagine the appetite for euroskepticism is at an all time high. -- PS; the Yellow Jacket movement was about the rising cost of living and high taxation on things like fuel. EU excise duties for member states is 3.5% on unleaded petrol. FR excise duties for unleaded petrol is 64%. UK excise duties for unleaded petrol is 55% (57.95p/l). So, are frances problems the EU, or it's own government? I ask the same question about the UK, we all know Rupert Murdoch owns most of the newspapers and routinely courts the UK Govt.
- rswail 8y ago
  A lot of people in the US bitch about the "Feds" and talk about "states rights". Same in Canada, same in Australia. That doesn't mean that secession is feasible for any of those states. The EU is only 50-60 years old (depending on where you draw the line). It's the result of the worst war in human history. That war also resulted in the decolonization by European states of areas outside Europe. The UK lost its independence when it won the war. The EU is the best result of that war and now the UK believes it can refight the issues of the post-war world.

The EU is quite popular among most of its other citizens. (Half) the UK citizenry was an outlier in that regard.

by jpster 8y ago

The EU is quite popular among most of its other citizens. (Half) the UK citizenry was an outlier in that regard.

No, this is simply not true. In France, the EU is viewed with even wider skepticism than in the UK. Just before Brexit - the majority of France, Germany, UK and Spain had negative views of the EU [1] Popular sentiment towards the EU has been declining steadily until Brexit, during which it's shot up somewhat, as EU-wide press does their best to inject fear into the situation - but without this existential angst, the trend-line is clearly going down. This is also obvious from recent Eurosceptic political trends. Consider that just this week, the far right AfD in Germany, has just announced they would like to move Germany out of the EU as a material policy. They have about 15% of the vote. They've always been sceptic, but there has never been discussion in Germany about exit before. But it is of course nuanced: + Wether or not citizens want to 'leave' is a different question. + Wether or not people would opt to 'join' were they not members otherwise, is also a different question. + Wether or not they can separate the notion of 'EU' and 'Europe' is another question. For example, Italy, Europe's 3rd largest economy has just elected a Eurosceptic party, but they have no real inclination to leave. For Italians, to 'leave the EU' is to 'leave Europe' and because they see themselves as European, they may not chose to leave the EU. (I see that as a false equivalence, that the EU is not Europe, just a body politic and set of treaties.) + Nations that have the most direct battles with the EU, for example Poland, have the highest rating! Make no mistake - though material 'exit' may be stronger in the UK than elsewhere, anti-EU sentiment is strong across Europe, and the overall trend-line is bad news. Aside from political issues, there are serious economic concerns about the Euro, and that it's a 'trap' for peripheral nations unless there is deeper political integration (there won't be), and even if there was, they would never agree on how to print money anyhow. And finally - even issues for which the EU can't fairly be blamed ... they will take the heat for in many cases. The kind of populism you see in France right now with the Gilets Jaunes which is leaderless, has no ideology, there's nobody to negotiate with, nobody to appease, nobody really knows for sure why it's happening, it's just 'angst' ... this is going to spill over into Bruxelles. You'll see arbitrary movements like this. That most of Europe's current elite are fairly pro-EU, and that the current political bodies are fairly 'on the same page' should not be interpreted as populist favour overall for the EU. To anyone who thinks that Euroscepticism is a marginal issue, have a look at the Wikipedia entry, it's enlightening, and also gives some insight into all of the different nuances of it. [1] http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-more-favorable-toward-eu/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-mo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dijit 8y ago
Ok, You've made reasoned arguments and been downvoted, and for that I'm sorry. I'm going to attack the core of your argument, but please understand that I'm not attacking you personally. -- The EU has an executive body that is not directly elected, they are, however, elected. They're elected by the representatives that you and I directly elect. This is a stark contrast to the house of lords, who are truly unelected by any elected representative or even the public directly. -- EU popularity is a bit stronger in central europe, even more so with brexit looming. The thing is: the EU doesn't have PR of any sort, they're a transparent organisation but that makes it opaque for many people since the content isn't distilled- we rely on media to distill it for us. The good news is that the information is always available and you're able to rebuff the media quite easily. That's why brexit lies are easy to debunk but impossible to get a platform for in the UK. (unless you're the guardian, but that is preaching to the choir as guardian readers tend to be pro-EU) If the EU did have a PR campaign, it would be easy for the UK media to cry about how the EU is propagandizing using our tax money. And that would be true. So they're in a catch-22. The _good_ thing about brexit for the rest of the EU, is that outside of the UK the media are picking up on _our_ media lies and spreading them. I live in Sweden so I get it fairly full blast. The benefits of being in the EU are incredibly evident from the outside. I can't imagine the appetite for euroskepticism is at an all time high. -- PS; the Yellow Jacket movement was about the rising cost of living and high taxation on things like fuel. EU excise duties for member states is 3.5% on unleaded petrol. FR excise duties for unleaded petrol is 64%. UK excise duties for unleaded petrol is 55% (57.95p/l). So, are frances problems the EU, or it's own government? I ask the same question about the UK, we all know Rupert Murdoch owns most of the newspapers and routinely courts the UK Govt.
rswail 8y ago
A lot of people in the US bitch about the "Feds" and talk about "states rights". Same in Canada, same in Australia. That doesn't mean that secession is feasible for any of those states. The EU is only 50-60 years old (depending on where you draw the line). It's the result of the worst war in human history. That war also resulted in the decolonization by European states of areas outside Europe. The UK lost its independence when it won the war. The EU is the best result of that war and now the UK believes it can refight the issues of the post-war world.