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While I agree that the fossil fuel industry is positioning itself to prosper in a post fossil fuel economy, I don’t believe that it is completely manufacturing

by smadge 8y ago

While I agree that the fossil fuel industry is positioning itself to prosper in a post fossil fuel economy, I don’t believe that it is completely manufacturing the concern over climate change.

briantakita 8y ago
That's fine & I agree that the climate is changing. If you don't believe me re: the fossil fuel industry appropriating the "climate change" movement, look at who funds various studies & organizations that are major players in the dissemination of climate change science. There's a grain of truth, but these organizations seek to "get ahead of the story" so it can influence the population with a narrative of it's choosing. Are you aware of the "grand solar minimum" which has recently begun? The sun will be emitting less heat, which will result in Earth having a lower temperature. Historically, this has led to significantly less crop yields, more ice, colder temperatures (especially is Europe and NE United States). Heightened warfare (due to resource limitation/competition) & Mass disease (e.g. the bubonic plague) are another consequence. Empires (e.g. Rome) have collapsed during periods of solar dimming, so be prepared; Winter is Coming! While there may be some anthropomorphic global warming from CO2, it will not offset the reduction of heat from the Sun. Also note the plethora of other anthropomorphic effects which are not talked about as often, such as Atmospheric Aerosol Injection & weather modification technologies. Atmospheric Aerosol Injection uses sulfates, which increase the flammability of forests due to being highly flammable & killing/weakening vegetation. There's plenty of f*ckery that is not reported...
- henearkr 8y ago
  Here you are disproved: https://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=21 https://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=21 You're welcome.
  - briantakita 8y ago
    Given the speculative, provincial, emerging, & cultural nature of scientific research, a scientific paper is not a proof. Given the aggressiveness & pervasiveness of the propaganda for certain teleological ideologies, I have my doubts as to the integrity of the processes & individuals involved. Time will tell what will happen. I'll place my bet & you can place your bet... The record snowfall in Europe does not care about the scientific paper you posted; but I'm sure a scientist will write it off as the "wierding of weather", "obviously" based mainly on anthropomorphic carbon emissions. So you can still "debunk", via appeal to authority, anybody who doubts the scientific hegemony with another scientific paper. An effective strategy, in the face of uncertainty & incomplete knowledge, is to track the possibility space & to keep optionality (and discussion) open. Good luck...
    - Oletros 8y ago
      So, if reality doesn't match my hypotesis I dissmiss reality? By the way: > The record snowfall in Europe does not care about the scientific paper you posted Confussing climate with weather?
      - briantakita 8y ago
        I don't know, but probably, since we interpret reality through the lens of our biases & models we are exposed to/believe in. There's unknown unknowns in a complex phenomena re: climate. According to this video, a signature of CO2 warming is the surface & lower atmosphere warms while the upper atmosphere cools. https://youtu.be/H5kejSYPD7U?t=90 https://youtu.be/H5kejSYPD7U?t=90 Yet the current heavy snow storm in Europe is being caused by the splitting of the polar vortex, caused by warming in the stratosphere. https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2019-01-10-the-polar-vortex-has-fallen-apart-and-that-could-unleash-a-much https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2019-01-10-the-po... There's speculation that the acceleration of movement of the magnetic poles may have a factor, but it's a complex system... https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2018-12-18-polar-vortex-weakening-colder-jan-2019 https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2018-12-18-polar-... Point is, there are many complex dynamics at play & it's tempting to many people to subscribe a single factor as the primary cause. The reality is far more complex than what many of us would prefer, so many of us view reality with a simpler lens that we wish to see things with...
        Oletros 8y ago
        > According to this video, a signature of CO2 warming is the surface & lower atmosphere warms while the upper atmosphere cools > Yet the current heavy snow storm in Europe is being caused by the splitting of the polar vortex, caused by warming in the stratosphere Split of polar vortex: https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/facts/warming_NH.html https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/facts/warming_NH.html You're still confussing weather with climate and an atmospheric phenomenon with global warming through CO2
      - briantakita 8y ago
        > You're still confussing weather with climate and an atmospheric phenomenon with global warming through CO2 I don't think I am. Let me clarify my position; I see CO2 as a potential factor in climate change, though it's not clear if reducing anthropomorphic CO2 levels will have a positive (or enough of a positive) impact to justify it's opportunity costs in economy, freedom, etc. Another factor that is rarely discussed is plant growth. As CO2 increases, plant growth increases, which would sequester CO2. Less solar output would reduce plant growth, as would pollution, conventional monoculture till petro-chemical agriculture, habitat loss/ecosystem collapse, among other factors. I think we would get more bang for the buck if we focus on local/distributed initiatives such as regenerative polyculture agriculture, localized permaculture solutions, water/ground/air pollution, & embrace the complexities of ecosystems. Pesticide usage should be reduced in favor of using natural solutions (such as predators). Putting on the blinders to only legislate CO2 levels is a mistake, rife with unintended consequences & opportunity costs. Local solutions requires localities, individuals, & nature to be empowered, opposed to a reliance on centralized entities & technology. Local/distributed mindsets accounts for the qualitative complexities of nature whilst centralized entities seek simplistic quantitative one-size-fits-all metrics to drive bureaucratic policy; which explains why a simplistic measurement (CO2) is an attractive boogie man to our climate issues. Even our discussions are dumbed down due to the obsession over CO2 (a singular quantifiable "cause"), because the possibility space of both causes & solutions are constrained...

by smadge 8y ago

While I agree that the fossil fuel industry is positioning itself to prosper in a post fossil fuel economy, I don’t believe that it is completely manufacturing the concern over climate change.

briantakita 8y ago

That's fine & I agree that the climate is changing. If you don't believe me re: the fossil fuel industry appropriating the "climate change" movement, look at who funds various studies & organizations that are major players in the dissemination of climate change science. There's a grain of truth, but these organizations seek to "get ahead of the story" so it can influence the population with a narrative of it's choosing. Are you aware of the "grand solar minimum" which has recently begun? The sun will be emitting less heat, which will result in Earth having a lower temperature. Historically, this has led to significantly less crop yields, more ice, colder temperatures (especially is Europe and NE United States). Heightened warfare (due to resource limitation/competition) & Mass disease (e.g. the bubonic plague) are another consequence. Empires (e.g. Rome) have collapsed during periods of solar dimming, so be prepared; Winter is Coming! While there may be some anthropomorphic global warming from CO2, it will not offset the reduction of heat from the Sun. Also note the plethora of other anthropomorphic effects which are not talked about as often, such as Atmospheric Aerosol Injection & weather modification technologies. Atmospheric Aerosol Injection uses sulfates, which increase the flammability of forests due to being highly flammable & killing/weakening vegetation. There's plenty of f*ckery that is not reported...

henearkr 8y ago
Here you are disproved: https://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=21 https://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=21 You're welcome.
- briantakita 8y ago
  Given the speculative, provincial, emerging, & cultural nature of scientific research, a scientific paper is not a proof. Given the aggressiveness & pervasiveness of the propaganda for certain teleological ideologies, I have my doubts as to the integrity of the processes & individuals involved. Time will tell what will happen. I'll place my bet & you can place your bet... The record snowfall in Europe does not care about the scientific paper you posted; but I'm sure a scientist will write it off as the "wierding of weather", "obviously" based mainly on anthropomorphic carbon emissions. So you can still "debunk", via appeal to authority, anybody who doubts the scientific hegemony with another scientific paper. An effective strategy, in the face of uncertainty & incomplete knowledge, is to track the possibility space & to keep optionality (and discussion) open. Good luck...
  - Oletros 8y ago
    So, if reality doesn't match my hypotesis I dissmiss reality? By the way: > The record snowfall in Europe does not care about the scientific paper you posted Confussing climate with weather?
    - briantakita 8y ago
      I don't know, but probably, since we interpret reality through the lens of our biases & models we are exposed to/believe in. There's unknown unknowns in a complex phenomena re: climate. According to this video, a signature of CO2 warming is the surface & lower atmosphere warms while the upper atmosphere cools. https://youtu.be/H5kejSYPD7U?t=90 https://youtu.be/H5kejSYPD7U?t=90 Yet the current heavy snow storm in Europe is being caused by the splitting of the polar vortex, caused by warming in the stratosphere. https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2019-01-10-the-polar-vortex-has-fallen-apart-and-that-could-unleash-a-much https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2019-01-10-the-po... There's speculation that the acceleration of movement of the magnetic poles may have a factor, but it's a complex system... https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2018-12-18-polar-vortex-weakening-colder-jan-2019 https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2018-12-18-polar-... Point is, there are many complex dynamics at play & it's tempting to many people to subscribe a single factor as the primary cause. The reality is far more complex than what many of us would prefer, so many of us view reality with a simpler lens that we wish to see things with...
      - Oletros 8y ago
        > According to this video, a signature of CO2 warming is the surface & lower atmosphere warms while the upper atmosphere cools > Yet the current heavy snow storm in Europe is being caused by the splitting of the polar vortex, caused by warming in the stratosphere Split of polar vortex: https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/facts/warming_NH.html https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/facts/warming_NH.html You're still confussing weather with climate and an atmospheric phenomenon with global warming through CO2
    - briantakita 8y ago
      > You're still confussing weather with climate and an atmospheric phenomenon with global warming through CO2 I don't think I am. Let me clarify my position; I see CO2 as a potential factor in climate change, though it's not clear if reducing anthropomorphic CO2 levels will have a positive (or enough of a positive) impact to justify it's opportunity costs in economy, freedom, etc. Another factor that is rarely discussed is plant growth. As CO2 increases, plant growth increases, which would sequester CO2. Less solar output would reduce plant growth, as would pollution, conventional monoculture till petro-chemical agriculture, habitat loss/ecosystem collapse, among other factors. I think we would get more bang for the buck if we focus on local/distributed initiatives such as regenerative polyculture agriculture, localized permaculture solutions, water/ground/air pollution, & embrace the complexities of ecosystems. Pesticide usage should be reduced in favor of using natural solutions (such as predators). Putting on the blinders to only legislate CO2 levels is a mistake, rife with unintended consequences & opportunity costs. Local solutions requires localities, individuals, & nature to be empowered, opposed to a reliance on centralized entities & technology. Local/distributed mindsets accounts for the qualitative complexities of nature whilst centralized entities seek simplistic quantitative one-size-fits-all metrics to drive bureaucratic policy; which explains why a simplistic measurement (CO2) is an attractive boogie man to our climate issues. Even our discussions are dumbed down due to the obsession over CO2 (a singular quantifiable "cause"), because the possibility space of both causes & solutions are constrained...