5 ms·

I can never understand why no-deal v remain appears to be a reasonable position. A normal response to a closely contested referendum carried out the way this o

I can never understand why no-deal v remain appears to be a reasonable position. A normal response to a closely contested referendum carried out the way this one was would be to find some consensus within parliament for how brexit could be delivered, _then_ enact article 50 to withdraw. The current prime minister not only kept all opposition parties away from deliberations on how to proceed, but kept her own ministers in the dark while formulating her own policy, which she pursued largely in secret. So why should the electorate be cheated in this manner? Even now, forms of brexit based on remaining in the EEA have a great chance of having parliamentary support.

dv_dt 8y ago
> Even now, forms of brexit based on remaining in the EEA have a great chance of having parliamentary support. But that's not the deal with the EU and there is no time left to negotiate this I thought. Can you perhaps explain more? Is it that you think May actually cheated the electorate that wanted Brexit? I though she was essentially on the side of Brexit?
- lozenge 8y ago
  "Our UK friends need to say what they want, instead of asking us to say what we want, and so we would like within a few weeks our UK friends to set out their expectations for us, because this debate is sometimes nebulous and imprecise and I would like clarifications," - 14 December If the UK will offer something new, such as staying in the single market, then the EU is willing to reopen negotiations, extend article 50 etc. If the UK just says "this isn't good, we want something better" - then the EU won't renegotiate. She voted Remain, and decided that implementing Leave was the only way to be Prime Minister and it was worth it. Also, she has such a thin majority, the Brexiters will topple her unless she toes to their line (restricting immigration, avoiding ECJ etc).
  - hardlianotion 8y ago
    This thinking is narrow. There is a parliamentary majority, and a majority within her own party, for an EEA-style solution.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      But the DUP have vetoed it, and they're all that matters unless someone can assemble the alleged EEA majority into a government.
      - hardlianotion 8y ago
        All it would take would be someone in government to suggest it, the position would have cross-party support. DUP would be irrelevant in this situation. Having said that, DUP are actually agnostic to the form of exit the UK takes. Their red line is that they will not be treated differently to the rest of the UK. People often forget that. I actually think this is the most likely outcome right now.
        pjc50 8y ago
        Remember that EEA now requires a hasty renegotiation of the deal, including continuing ECJ jurisdiction and free movement. Someone has to tell the kippers that the Poles will stay.
        hardlianotion 8y ago
        True. The situation is very shit. ECJ jurisdiction is - strictly speaking (and I know I am fudging a little here) - over. EFTA-style court is what would rule instead, and that would cover a much smaller set of legislation than we currently enjoy from the EU. As for kippers, there were 17 million votes for leave and a surprisingly large number don't have immigration as their major concern. Also, if we take Switzerland as an example, free movement doesn't seem to have precisely the same implications for an EEA member outside the union, but there is a tradeoff as to the access you get if you try to restrict movement. This was something the Swiss experimented with a few years back. Not altogether happily, I seem to recall, but I am hazy.
- hardlianotion 8y ago
  Cheating - no. May is simply the wrong politician to have put in charge at this time. She is secretive and seems not to understand the people making up her own party, let alone parliament. Time is short, but if there were some move toward EEA-based , I bet means would be made for an extension. These deadlines are essentially artificial, after all, and it is not only the UK that will be badly damaged if a deal is not reached.

dv_dt 8y ago

> Even now, forms of brexit based on remaining in the EEA have a great chance of having parliamentary support. But that's not the deal with the EU and there is no time left to negotiate this I thought. Can you perhaps explain more? Is it that you think May actually cheated the electorate that wanted Brexit? I though she was essentially on the side of Brexit?

lozenge 8y ago
"Our UK friends need to say what they want, instead of asking us to say what we want, and so we would like within a few weeks our UK friends to set out their expectations for us, because this debate is sometimes nebulous and imprecise and I would like clarifications," - 14 December If the UK will offer something new, such as staying in the single market, then the EU is willing to reopen negotiations, extend article 50 etc. If the UK just says "this isn't good, we want something better" - then the EU won't renegotiate. She voted Remain, and decided that implementing Leave was the only way to be Prime Minister and it was worth it. Also, she has such a thin majority, the Brexiters will topple her unless she toes to their line (restricting immigration, avoiding ECJ etc).
- hardlianotion 8y ago
  This thinking is narrow. There is a parliamentary majority, and a majority within her own party, for an EEA-style solution.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    But the DUP have vetoed it, and they're all that matters unless someone can assemble the alleged EEA majority into a government.
    - hardlianotion 8y ago
      All it would take would be someone in government to suggest it, the position would have cross-party support. DUP would be irrelevant in this situation. Having said that, DUP are actually agnostic to the form of exit the UK takes. Their red line is that they will not be treated differently to the rest of the UK. People often forget that. I actually think this is the most likely outcome right now.
      - pjc50 8y ago
        Remember that EEA now requires a hasty renegotiation of the deal, including continuing ECJ jurisdiction and free movement. Someone has to tell the kippers that the Poles will stay.
        hardlianotion 8y ago
        True. The situation is very shit. ECJ jurisdiction is - strictly speaking (and I know I am fudging a little here) - over. EFTA-style court is what would rule instead, and that would cover a much smaller set of legislation than we currently enjoy from the EU. As for kippers, there were 17 million votes for leave and a surprisingly large number don't have immigration as their major concern. Also, if we take Switzerland as an example, free movement doesn't seem to have precisely the same implications for an EEA member outside the union, but there is a tradeoff as to the access you get if you try to restrict movement. This was something the Swiss experimented with a few years back. Not altogether happily, I seem to recall, but I am hazy.
hardlianotion 8y ago
Cheating - no. May is simply the wrong politician to have put in charge at this time. She is secretive and seems not to understand the people making up her own party, let alone parliament. Time is short, but if there were some move toward EEA-based , I bet means would be made for an extension. These deadlines are essentially artificial, after all, and it is not only the UK that will be badly damaged if a deal is not reached.