7 ms·

The majority of EU citizens did not vote in the Brexit referendum. They shouldn't have to suffer the consequences [edit to clarify] of a war resulting from this

by Beldin 8y ago

The majority of EU citizens did not vote in the Brexit referendum. They shouldn't have to suffer the consequences [edit to clarify] of a war resulting from this vote.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
candiodari 8y ago
The majority of EU citizens that voted whether to join the EU or not ... voted against doing that. Ditto with expansion of the EU, constitution of the EU. Should that be fixed too ? For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitu... (see "ratification") The EU has a long history of ignoring democratic elections. That, to me, does not seem like a good thing at all, and yet it's becoming ever more clear that if you want the EU to exist at all, ignoring elections will be the cost: Both the current Greek and the current Italian government made promises of leaving the EU to get elected. Both have reneged, but of course other parties are springing up with more forceful leave rhetoric. Now French and German extreme-right parties promise to kill the EU if they get elected, and the more mainstream is forced to also take a more anti-EU stance in each country. If either France or Germany decides to leave, then the EU experiment is over.
- petre 8y ago
  > Both the current Greek and the current Italian government made promises of leaving the EU It's quite late for that, since unlike the Brits they also joined the EMU and thus ceded sovereignity to the EU. This is exactly what Margaret Tatcher warned against: a federal Europe by the back door. Also, organizing a referendum on the topic of exiting from the Eurozone is a violation of EU treaties. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_withdrawal_from_the_eurozone#cite_note-60 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_withdrawal_from_the_eu... Other EU exits could be less disastrous if coordinated. For instance if Greece and Italy would leave at the same time and negotiate together. For this they would first need to form an aliance like the Visegrad group. Regardless, everyone would have to suffer in such an event due to lack of credibility in the EU project, lack of confidence in national currencies and the Euro.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"The majority of EU citizens did not vote in the Brexit referendum" The overwhelming majority of EU citizens did not vote to join the EU, nor did they vote in favour of the Treaty of Lisbon upon which the authority of the EU currently resides. Nor do any of the citizens of the EU get to vote for the EU executive, or anyone who has any material influence over legislation (their MEP's can't introduce legislation). In fact, majorities of several EU nations voted against the Treaty of Lisbon after which it was 'passed anyways' (I'm looking at you France), and after which the other referendums were cancelled because the elites knew it would would fail. And of course UK citizens never voted to join the EU, they voted to join the EEC. Most EU citizens want something like the EEC, with some nice freedom of movement. They don't want a hard or ideological political union. Have a look at Pew historical polling, it's interesting [1] - it shows the majority of even very large EU nations actually wary of the EU - up until the 'Brexit scare'. After Brexit, this will continue to languish downward. The EU has so many existential issues that it's facing, and it doesn't seem to want to suggest anything other than 'more political union' as an answer, which is clearly not it. (See the recent 'twinning' agreement signed by Macron and Merkel last week as an example of trying to get some political momentum going on the pro-EU side). The EU needs to reform, but it can't unfortunately for a variety of reasons, and I don't see any meaningful path forward. [1] http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-more-favorable-toward-eu/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-mo...
- petre 8y ago
  > Most EU citizens want something like the EEC, with some nice freedom of movement. They don't want a hard or ideological political union. I believe the EEA is just that.
  - patrickk 8y ago
    EEA is basically paying the EU membership fees, without any voting power regarding how the EU should be run.
    - petre 8y ago
remarkEon 8y ago
I don't live in the EU, so maybe I'm missing something, but how could Brexit possibly end in a war?

by Beldin 8y ago

The majority of EU citizens did not vote in the Brexit referendum. They shouldn't have to suffer the consequences [edit to clarify] of a war resulting from this vote.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

candiodari 8y ago

The majority of EU citizens that voted whether to join the EU or not ... voted against doing that. Ditto with expansion of the EU, constitution of the EU. Should that be fixed too ? For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitu... (see "ratification") The EU has a long history of ignoring democratic elections. That, to me, does not seem like a good thing at all, and yet it's becoming ever more clear that if you want the EU to exist at all, ignoring elections will be the cost: Both the current Greek and the current Italian government made promises of leaving the EU to get elected. Both have reneged, but of course other parties are springing up with more forceful leave rhetoric. Now French and German extreme-right parties promise to kill the EU if they get elected, and the more mainstream is forced to also take a more anti-EU stance in each country. If either France or Germany decides to leave, then the EU experiment is over.

petre 8y ago
> Both the current Greek and the current Italian government made promises of leaving the EU It's quite late for that, since unlike the Brits they also joined the EMU and thus ceded sovereignity to the EU. This is exactly what Margaret Tatcher warned against: a federal Europe by the back door. Also, organizing a referendum on the topic of exiting from the Eurozone is a violation of EU treaties. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_withdrawal_from_the_eurozone#cite_note-60 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_withdrawal_from_the_eu... Other EU exits could be less disastrous if coordinated. For instance if Greece and Italy would leave at the same time and negotiate together. For this they would first need to form an aliance like the Visegrad group. Regardless, everyone would have to suffer in such an event due to lack of credibility in the EU project, lack of confidence in national currencies and the Euro.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

"The majority of EU citizens did not vote in the Brexit referendum" The overwhelming majority of EU citizens did not vote to join the EU, nor did they vote in favour of the Treaty of Lisbon upon which the authority of the EU currently resides. Nor do any of the citizens of the EU get to vote for the EU executive, or anyone who has any material influence over legislation (their MEP's can't introduce legislation). In fact, majorities of several EU nations voted against the Treaty of Lisbon after which it was 'passed anyways' (I'm looking at you France), and after which the other referendums were cancelled because the elites knew it would would fail. And of course UK citizens never voted to join the EU, they voted to join the EEC. Most EU citizens want something like the EEC, with some nice freedom of movement. They don't want a hard or ideological political union. Have a look at Pew historical polling, it's interesting [1] - it shows the majority of even very large EU nations actually wary of the EU - up until the 'Brexit scare'. After Brexit, this will continue to languish downward. The EU has so many existential issues that it's facing, and it doesn't seem to want to suggest anything other than 'more political union' as an answer, which is clearly not it. (See the recent 'twinning' agreement signed by Macron and Merkel last week as an example of trying to get some political momentum going on the pro-EU side). The EU needs to reform, but it can't unfortunately for a variety of reasons, and I don't see any meaningful path forward. [1] http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-more-favorable-toward-eu/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/post-brexit-europeans-mo...

petre 8y ago
> Most EU citizens want something like the EEC, with some nice freedom of movement. They don't want a hard or ideological political union. I believe the EEA is just that.
- patrickk 8y ago
  EEA is basically paying the EU membership fees, without any voting power regarding how the EU should be run.
  - petre 8y ago

remarkEon 8y ago

I don't live in the EU, so maybe I'm missing something, but how could Brexit possibly end in a war?