7 ms·

Well, what if? You're essentially arguing that if our benevolent overlords decide that the democratic process might result in something unfavorable that they s

by xienze 8y ago

Well, what if? You're essentially arguing that if our benevolent overlords decide that the democratic process might result in something unfavorable that they should do the wise thing and ignore the will of the people.

fossuser 8y ago
I'm arguing in favor of representative government where elected people decide on what makes the most sense for complex issues. Relying on advice from experts, but ultimately making the call that's in the country's best interest.
- RobertoG 8y ago
  That sounds like a fantastic system, where is being implemented? I would like to move there.
  - falsedan 8y ago
    It’s Switzerland.
- sievebrain 8y ago
  So far every expert prediction about Brexit had been wrong. The UK was meant to be in a deep recession by now, remember?
  - inciampati 8y ago
    It is not doing well. It's turning back into the sick man of Europe. Productivity growth is among the lowest in the EU.
    - sievebrain 8y ago
      That's an interesting description. Last year UK growth beat Germany, France and Italy in Q3 (don't know q4 figures yet I believe). It looks like the eurozone may be heading for recession given falling industrial output in Germany. It bothers me immensely how quickly the truth gets discarded the moment it conflicts with EU ideology. The UK has shown excellent economics relative to the rest of Europe since the vote despite its people being told "uncertainty" would trigger a massive recession and employment bloodbath. Yet here you are, saying it's turning into the sick man of Europe!
      - AstralStorm 8y ago
        It probably is, but so is most of EU. Important big money already migrated to Ireland (mostly), but it takes some time (years, multiple) to take an effect if any.
  - spuz 8y ago
    Where did you read that the UK would be in a deep recession 2 months before Brexit actually happens?
    - stephen_g 8y ago
      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564 (2016). Treasury (as well as other organisations) predicted that the vote itself would immediately trigger a deep and severe recession.
      - dane-pgp 8y ago
        That's a helpful article, but I don't know of any examples of organisations other than the Treasury that predicted a deep and severe recession occurring before the UK had even left the EU. One has to admit that there is something of a conflict of interest when it comes to the Chancellor of the Exchequer producing a document to analyse the negative consequences of a scenario which his own prime minister was campaigning against.
        sievebrain 8y ago
        You didn't look, maybe? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/18/imf-says-brexit-would-trigger-uk-recession-eu-referendum https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/18/imf-says-br... The entire global establishment of "experts" united together and made a series of predictions that weren't just wrong by a percentage, they were wrong in the wrong direction. There are NO organisations that I remember who predicted the outcome correctly. There were though, quite a lot of vox pops with the man on the street who said words to the effect of, "it'll be fine, we'll manage". The brutal reality is that people who put their faith in the notion of expert understanding of politics or economics have been made to look very foolish, and worse, many of them don't seem to have accepted the uselessness or bias levels of the people the media present as experts. They are still being upheld not only as important, but actually as people who should be given vast new powers to run government! It's quite concerning.
  - tim333 8y ago
    It's true it's not as bad as some predicted and I imagine with a no deal brexit we'd muddle through but it still wouldn't be great. For reference here's some prediction from back then: >The Treasury's "cautious" economic forecasts of the two years following a vote to leave - which assumes a bilateral trade agreement with the EU would have been negotiated - predicts Gross Domestic Product would grow by 3.6% less than currently predicted. >In such a scenario, it suggests sterling would fall by 12%, unemployment would rise by 520,000, average wages would fall by 2.8% and house prices would be hit by 10%. Which was pessimistic. Sterling certainly fell, about 20%, but unemployment's doing fine so far.
    - AstralStorm 8y ago
      By fine you mean as poorly as before so far, and Brexit is not yet in full effect.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  So, like, Parliamentary sovereignty with a democratically elected parliament, instead of popular sovereignty? What an odd idea.
blibble 8y ago
this is the general principle behind the EU Commission: that of a technocracy the head of the Commission, Jean Claude Juncker, on the 2005 French referendum on the Lisbon Treaty: "If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'." the result being that the French rejected it, but it was adopted regardless
- jimnotgym 8y ago
  Wikipedia suggests that 1. The French didn't hold a referendum on Lisbon 2. The treaty was ratified in 2008 Presumably you are either confusing the referendum on the EU constitution with the Lisbon treaty, or trying to suggest that they are one and the same? They are not of course, the Lisbon treaty was drafted specifically to address the concerns with the EU constitution. "The electorate rejected version 1, so we redrafted until it was acceptable" sounds like a pretty good policy to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_Lisbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_...
  - blibble 8y ago
    as I'm sure you are aware: the texts of the constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are essentially completely identical the Treaty was a device created to pass the constitution while bypassing the need for referendums > "The electorate rejected version 1, so we redrafted until it was acceptable" sounds like a pretty good policy to me well yes, that sounds reasonable, except the electorate were not given the option to reject it a second time, because they might actually do that
    - jimnotgym 8y ago
      > as I'm sure you are aware: the texts of the constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are essentially completely identical I am not aware of any such thing, in fact I reject your statement completely. > the electorate were not given the option to reject it a second time Isn't that a matter for France to address, rather than the EU
andybak 8y ago
"the will of the people" sounds very grand and final. "the will of 52% of the people" doesn't quite have the same ring to it. I'm not claiming that I don't understand the concept of referendum by simple majority - merely that there's a certain duplicity in the sanctimonious language being used to describe the result.
- starshadowx2 8y ago
  52% of a 72% turnout, so really just ~37% of "the people". (If I did the maths right)
  - tim333 8y ago
    Yeah 52% of those who could be bothered to vote. The non voters polled about 60-40 remain so you could argue the will of the people including the lazy was remain. Though of course there isn't really a single will of the people, just a lot of people with differing opinions.
    - dane-pgp 8y ago
      > 52% of those who could be bothered to vote. Not just bothered to vote, but allowed to vote. Citizens of other EU member states, living in Britain, were not eligible to vote (with a few exceptions), and nor were British citizens who had been living in other EU member states for "too long". Moreover, 16 and 17 year olds were disenfranchised too, despite that age group being allowed to vote in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.
      - petre 8y ago
        Are 16 and 17 year olds even of voting age in the UK? You can't possibly advocate letting non UK citizens decide for UK matters.
        jashmatthews 8y ago
        > You can't possibly advocate letting non UK citizens decide for UK matters. The UK has a long history of letting non UK commonwealth citizens vote in things like... The Brexit referendum!

by xienze 8y ago

fossuser 8y ago

I'm arguing in favor of representative government where elected people decide on what makes the most sense for complex issues. Relying on advice from experts, but ultimately making the call that's in the country's best interest.

RobertoG 8y ago
That sounds like a fantastic system, where is being implemented? I would like to move there.
- falsedan 8y ago
  It’s Switzerland.
sievebrain 8y ago
So far every expert prediction about Brexit had been wrong. The UK was meant to be in a deep recession by now, remember?
- inciampati 8y ago
  It is not doing well. It's turning back into the sick man of Europe. Productivity growth is among the lowest in the EU.
  - sievebrain 8y ago
    That's an interesting description. Last year UK growth beat Germany, France and Italy in Q3 (don't know q4 figures yet I believe). It looks like the eurozone may be heading for recession given falling industrial output in Germany. It bothers me immensely how quickly the truth gets discarded the moment it conflicts with EU ideology. The UK has shown excellent economics relative to the rest of Europe since the vote despite its people being told "uncertainty" would trigger a massive recession and employment bloodbath. Yet here you are, saying it's turning into the sick man of Europe!
    - AstralStorm 8y ago
      It probably is, but so is most of EU. Important big money already migrated to Ireland (mostly), but it takes some time (years, multiple) to take an effect if any.
- spuz 8y ago
  Where did you read that the UK would be in a deep recession 2 months before Brexit actually happens?
  - stephen_g 8y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564 (2016). Treasury (as well as other organisations) predicted that the vote itself would immediately trigger a deep and severe recession.
    - dane-pgp 8y ago
      That's a helpful article, but I don't know of any examples of organisations other than the Treasury that predicted a deep and severe recession occurring before the UK had even left the EU. One has to admit that there is something of a conflict of interest when it comes to the Chancellor of the Exchequer producing a document to analyse the negative consequences of a scenario which his own prime minister was campaigning against.
      - sievebrain 8y ago
        You didn't look, maybe? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/18/imf-says-brexit-would-trigger-uk-recession-eu-referendum https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/18/imf-says-br... The entire global establishment of "experts" united together and made a series of predictions that weren't just wrong by a percentage, they were wrong in the wrong direction. There are NO organisations that I remember who predicted the outcome correctly. There were though, quite a lot of vox pops with the man on the street who said words to the effect of, "it'll be fine, we'll manage". The brutal reality is that people who put their faith in the notion of expert understanding of politics or economics have been made to look very foolish, and worse, many of them don't seem to have accepted the uselessness or bias levels of the people the media present as experts. They are still being upheld not only as important, but actually as people who should be given vast new powers to run government! It's quite concerning.
- tim333 8y ago
  It's true it's not as bad as some predicted and I imagine with a no deal brexit we'd muddle through but it still wouldn't be great. For reference here's some prediction from back then: >The Treasury's "cautious" economic forecasts of the two years following a vote to leave - which assumes a bilateral trade agreement with the EU would have been negotiated - predicts Gross Domestic Product would grow by 3.6% less than currently predicted. >In such a scenario, it suggests sterling would fall by 12%, unemployment would rise by 520,000, average wages would fall by 2.8% and house prices would be hit by 10%. Which was pessimistic. Sterling certainly fell, about 20%, but unemployment's doing fine so far.
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    By fine you mean as poorly as before so far, and Brexit is not yet in full effect.
dragonwriter 8y ago
So, like, Parliamentary sovereignty with a democratically elected parliament, instead of popular sovereignty? What an odd idea.

blibble 8y ago

this is the general principle behind the EU Commission: that of a technocracy the head of the Commission, Jean Claude Juncker, on the 2005 French referendum on the Lisbon Treaty: "If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'." the result being that the French rejected it, but it was adopted regardless

jimnotgym 8y ago
Wikipedia suggests that 1. The French didn't hold a referendum on Lisbon 2. The treaty was ratified in 2008 Presumably you are either confusing the referendum on the EU constitution with the Lisbon treaty, or trying to suggest that they are one and the same? They are not of course, the Lisbon treaty was drafted specifically to address the concerns with the EU constitution. "The electorate rejected version 1, so we redrafted until it was acceptable" sounds like a pretty good policy to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_Lisbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_...
- blibble 8y ago
  as I'm sure you are aware: the texts of the constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are essentially completely identical the Treaty was a device created to pass the constitution while bypassing the need for referendums > "The electorate rejected version 1, so we redrafted until it was acceptable" sounds like a pretty good policy to me well yes, that sounds reasonable, except the electorate were not given the option to reject it a second time, because they might actually do that
  - jimnotgym 8y ago
    > as I'm sure you are aware: the texts of the constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are essentially completely identical I am not aware of any such thing, in fact I reject your statement completely. > the electorate were not given the option to reject it a second time Isn't that a matter for France to address, rather than the EU

andybak 8y ago

"the will of the people" sounds very grand and final. "the will of 52% of the people" doesn't quite have the same ring to it. I'm not claiming that I don't understand the concept of referendum by simple majority - merely that there's a certain duplicity in the sanctimonious language being used to describe the result.

starshadowx2 8y ago
52% of a 72% turnout, so really just ~37% of "the people". (If I did the maths right)
- tim333 8y ago
  Yeah 52% of those who could be bothered to vote. The non voters polled about 60-40 remain so you could argue the will of the people including the lazy was remain. Though of course there isn't really a single will of the people, just a lot of people with differing opinions.
  - dane-pgp 8y ago
    > 52% of those who could be bothered to vote. Not just bothered to vote, but allowed to vote. Citizens of other EU member states, living in Britain, were not eligible to vote (with a few exceptions), and nor were British citizens who had been living in other EU member states for "too long". Moreover, 16 and 17 year olds were disenfranchised too, despite that age group being allowed to vote in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.
    - petre 8y ago
      Are 16 and 17 year olds even of voting age in the UK? You can't possibly advocate letting non UK citizens decide for UK matters.
      - jashmatthews 8y ago
        > You can't possibly advocate letting non UK citizens decide for UK matters. The UK has a long history of letting non UK commonwealth citizens vote in things like... The Brexit referendum!