6 ms·

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to bac

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to back up their claims and so feel lied to but, sadly, the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. They want out at all costs because the “EU is telling us what to do”. Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability but going through with it seems to me, to be economic suicide (ask any small business owner or retailer how it’s going at the moment and they’d say the process has already started). A bad deal (like this) really did seem the best of an awful situation to me - it reflected the vote, 48/52. Half the country (probably more since a million or so people have now become old enough to vote who couldnt before) didn’t want to do this so perhaps it should be an awkward compromise that gives both sides a bit of what they want.

siquick 8y ago
It wasn't 52% of the country though. The voter turnout was 72% and that excludes the millions of under 18s who will be affected by this the most.
- simonbarker87 8y ago
  Well yeah, what’s your point?
- UK-Al05 8y ago
  Tbh that is one of the highest turnouts ever. Probably the most representative vote we've had.
- andrewmcwatters 8y ago
  Children should not be able to vote.
  - mattlondon 8y ago
    16 year olds can get married, join the military, work fulltime and pay income tax. Why shouldn't they also be allowed to vote?
    - andrewmcwatters 8y ago
      You know what, you're right. We should extend all 18-21 privileges to 16 years of age across all developed nations and call 16+ aged individuals adults. Because after all, they're fully developed persons capable of the same level of rational thought and emotional separation as those at 18 through 21 years of age and beyond. So, age of adulthood: 16. Age of consent: 16. Age of military draft eligibility: 16. Subsequently, since they're adults, we should also remove protections for individuals from their parents at 16 years of age and above. They're fully capable people. You're absolutely right. I'm wrong. Completely. Thanks for pointing that out.
      - megaremote 8y ago
        You know that when you have to go to the extreme that you have lost the argument.
      - mattlondon 8y ago
        You're welcome. Glad to help.
      - 1ris 8y ago
        Just as children are expected to pay maintenance for their parents when they are as adults in care homes, its reasonable to expect parents to pay maintenance for their children when they are getting educated. Its unrelated to being a adult. Besides that, you are right.
    - siquick 8y ago
      Why should they pay tax without representation?
      - CamelCaseName 8y ago
        What proportion of 16 year olds are paying tax? My guess is <1%. How many 16 year olds work enough to make above the minimum exemption? (£11,580) My guess is very few. Minimum wage for 16-18 year olds is £4.20/hr, but they'd need to make above £5.56 (11580/40/52) to have to pay income tax as they cannot work more than 40h a week. I also assume the vast majority have no/negligible assets to earn income off. So the only tax they would be paying is VAT, which everyone, including tourists, pay and shouldn't confer the right to representation.
  - Balero 8y ago
    Old people should not be able to vote. They don't understand the world, and won't be alive to feel the effects of any decision.
itissid 8y ago
> the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. Out of curiosity, how has "EU is telling us what to do" affected these people to make them so angry?
- simonbarker87 8y ago
  I wish I knew, I have asked and the best I can sumise is that their lives haven’t gone they way they hoped, the UK government has historically blamed stuff on the EU (a bit like someone blaming stuff on their manager to a customer) so they correlate the two “my life is not what I hoped because of the EU”, sprinkle on some patriotism (well I’m “British”) and the fear that 52/48 isn’t strong enough to see their “win” over the line and you get angry people. I could be way off but this is the best conclusion I have come to.
  - jcranmer 8y ago
    The general sense is that elected officials can be quite good at blaming others for their own failures (this tendency is by no means limited to British government). The EU is the convenient scapegoat in European politics, even if Britain has wide latitude to opt out of swathes of EU politics or even drive the EU itself as one of the largest members. The other point you make is quite true: even Brexiteers didn't think they would win the referendum. And the problem is that, in unexpectedly winning, they wanted to lock their success in quickly, before anyone could discover the problems in their arguments. And when they themselves found the problems, well, see the point I made: it's not the Brexiteers' fault that they couldn't come up with a deal that the EU would like, it's the EU's fault that Britain is in this mess.
- PaulRobinson 8y ago
  This is a complicated topic, but a short and overly basic version: There are many people in the UK - as in the US, as in most of the West, actually - for whom neoliberalism has not been kind. They see immigrants getting jobs and struggle to make ends meet and have been told via various right wing media outlets (in the UK, principally the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers), that there are two causes: uncontrolled freedom of movement in Europe and the political classes that are taking their marching orders from an unelected European Commission. This view misses out important details. Firstly, it's not accurate in the slightest. It also doesn't reflect the fact the sort of people who are the root cause are the rich globalists who don't pay tax, such as people who own the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers, for example. However, the view has been built up over entire lifetimes. There are sprinklings of truth about sovereignty (akin to the fact that States have limited powers in the US), inefficiencies in how the European Union does its business (c.f. the Strasbourg/Brussels move and split), and so on. However the UK gets far more economic benefit than it spends, and the poorest of communities like South Wales have had far more spent on it in targeted social programmes by the EU than has ever been spent by Westminster. Let me give you a direct example: Lincolnshire is a farming community that had seen declining populations for decades. A large number of farming labour jobs have been filled by people from Europe - particularly Eastern Europe - because they are prepared to do work locals are not, at a price that locals will not consider. Lincolnshire is a hard Leave area. Boston is IIRC the highest Leave vote in the country. When you ask there people why, one of their favourite anecdotes is the strain the Europeans put on local services. They sit in an A&E unit waiting hours to be seen, and are surrounded by Eastern Europeans. They think "all these people here are the reason my waiting time is so long, they're using services I pay for! If we got rid of them, I'd have been seen by now!" The context they are missing is that multiple A&E units in that county were slated for closure. The reason they remain open is because of high demand - from Eastern Europeans. If we block freedom of movement, they would not be seen quicker. The unit would not exist. It would be closed. But that's not how they see it. The real culprit as to why waiting times are so high is not because of the Eastern Europeans waiting with them, but because the government has cut funding, because tax receipts are lower than they could be, because certain rich businessmen have lobbied for tax breaks and then told the editors of the papers they own to blame the foreigners... So there is a huge amount of anger built out of lies and misdirection that will take generations to undo. And they are so convinced of these lies, they are prepared to cause chaos. One of them before the last referendum murdered an MP (a woman called Jo Cox), and that will be but the first of many.
megaremote 8y ago
> Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability What are they going to do? Lets be honest, the UK are the most impassioned people of all. They will not do anything. They aren't French, they aren't Spanish. Maybe they will have an extra cup of tea.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Especially when you consider it's the old that voted for Brexit. This stuff about riots is overplayed, if it was going to happen it would have started already.
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    If the pro brexit rallies are anything to go by the number of people who truly feel passionately for it are not bothered enough to take to the streets.

siquick 8y ago

It wasn't 52% of the country though. The voter turnout was 72% and that excludes the millions of under 18s who will be affected by this the most.

simonbarker87 8y ago
Well yeah, what’s your point?
UK-Al05 8y ago
Tbh that is one of the highest turnouts ever. Probably the most representative vote we've had.
andrewmcwatters 8y ago
Children should not be able to vote.
- mattlondon 8y ago
  16 year olds can get married, join the military, work fulltime and pay income tax. Why shouldn't they also be allowed to vote?
  - andrewmcwatters 8y ago
    You know what, you're right. We should extend all 18-21 privileges to 16 years of age across all developed nations and call 16+ aged individuals adults. Because after all, they're fully developed persons capable of the same level of rational thought and emotional separation as those at 18 through 21 years of age and beyond. So, age of adulthood: 16. Age of consent: 16. Age of military draft eligibility: 16. Subsequently, since they're adults, we should also remove protections for individuals from their parents at 16 years of age and above. They're fully capable people. You're absolutely right. I'm wrong. Completely. Thanks for pointing that out.
    - megaremote 8y ago
      You know that when you have to go to the extreme that you have lost the argument.
    - mattlondon 8y ago
      You're welcome. Glad to help.
    - 1ris 8y ago
      Just as children are expected to pay maintenance for their parents when they are as adults in care homes, its reasonable to expect parents to pay maintenance for their children when they are getting educated. Its unrelated to being a adult. Besides that, you are right.
  - siquick 8y ago
    Why should they pay tax without representation?
    - CamelCaseName 8y ago
      What proportion of 16 year olds are paying tax? My guess is <1%. How many 16 year olds work enough to make above the minimum exemption? (£11,580) My guess is very few. Minimum wage for 16-18 year olds is £4.20/hr, but they'd need to make above £5.56 (11580/40/52) to have to pay income tax as they cannot work more than 40h a week. I also assume the vast majority have no/negligible assets to earn income off. So the only tax they would be paying is VAT, which everyone, including tourists, pay and shouldn't confer the right to representation.
- Balero 8y ago
  Old people should not be able to vote. They don't understand the world, and won't be alive to feel the effects of any decision.

itissid 8y ago

> the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. Out of curiosity, how has "EU is telling us what to do" affected these people to make them so angry?

simonbarker87 8y ago
I wish I knew, I have asked and the best I can sumise is that their lives haven’t gone they way they hoped, the UK government has historically blamed stuff on the EU (a bit like someone blaming stuff on their manager to a customer) so they correlate the two “my life is not what I hoped because of the EU”, sprinkle on some patriotism (well I’m “British”) and the fear that 52/48 isn’t strong enough to see their “win” over the line and you get angry people. I could be way off but this is the best conclusion I have come to.
- jcranmer 8y ago
  The general sense is that elected officials can be quite good at blaming others for their own failures (this tendency is by no means limited to British government). The EU is the convenient scapegoat in European politics, even if Britain has wide latitude to opt out of swathes of EU politics or even drive the EU itself as one of the largest members. The other point you make is quite true: even Brexiteers didn't think they would win the referendum. And the problem is that, in unexpectedly winning, they wanted to lock their success in quickly, before anyone could discover the problems in their arguments. And when they themselves found the problems, well, see the point I made: it's not the Brexiteers' fault that they couldn't come up with a deal that the EU would like, it's the EU's fault that Britain is in this mess.
PaulRobinson 8y ago
This is a complicated topic, but a short and overly basic version: There are many people in the UK - as in the US, as in most of the West, actually - for whom neoliberalism has not been kind. They see immigrants getting jobs and struggle to make ends meet and have been told via various right wing media outlets (in the UK, principally the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers), that there are two causes: uncontrolled freedom of movement in Europe and the political classes that are taking their marching orders from an unelected European Commission. This view misses out important details. Firstly, it's not accurate in the slightest. It also doesn't reflect the fact the sort of people who are the root cause are the rich globalists who don't pay tax, such as people who own the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers, for example. However, the view has been built up over entire lifetimes. There are sprinklings of truth about sovereignty (akin to the fact that States have limited powers in the US), inefficiencies in how the European Union does its business (c.f. the Strasbourg/Brussels move and split), and so on. However the UK gets far more economic benefit than it spends, and the poorest of communities like South Wales have had far more spent on it in targeted social programmes by the EU than has ever been spent by Westminster. Let me give you a direct example: Lincolnshire is a farming community that had seen declining populations for decades. A large number of farming labour jobs have been filled by people from Europe - particularly Eastern Europe - because they are prepared to do work locals are not, at a price that locals will not consider. Lincolnshire is a hard Leave area. Boston is IIRC the highest Leave vote in the country. When you ask there people why, one of their favourite anecdotes is the strain the Europeans put on local services. They sit in an A&E unit waiting hours to be seen, and are surrounded by Eastern Europeans. They think "all these people here are the reason my waiting time is so long, they're using services I pay for! If we got rid of them, I'd have been seen by now!" The context they are missing is that multiple A&E units in that county were slated for closure. The reason they remain open is because of high demand - from Eastern Europeans. If we block freedom of movement, they would not be seen quicker. The unit would not exist. It would be closed. But that's not how they see it. The real culprit as to why waiting times are so high is not because of the Eastern Europeans waiting with them, but because the government has cut funding, because tax receipts are lower than they could be, because certain rich businessmen have lobbied for tax breaks and then told the editors of the papers they own to blame the foreigners... So there is a huge amount of anger built out of lies and misdirection that will take generations to undo. And they are so convinced of these lies, they are prepared to cause chaos. One of them before the last referendum murdered an MP (a woman called Jo Cox), and that will be but the first of many.

megaremote 8y ago

> Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability What are they going to do? Lets be honest, the UK are the most impassioned people of all. They will not do anything. They aren't French, they aren't Spanish. Maybe they will have an extra cup of tea.

tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Especially when you consider it's the old that voted for Brexit. This stuff about riots is overplayed, if it was going to happen it would have started already.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  If the pro brexit rallies are anything to go by the number of people who truly feel passionately for it are not bothered enough to take to the streets.