8 ms·

The whole thing seems like a slow motion train wreck, except with the potentially and arguably happy outcome of them remaining in the EU.

Someone1234 8y ago
Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no implied action on article 50.
- shmerl 8y ago
  If they are smart, they'll axe Brexit completely now and admit how they misled everyone about its benefits.
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    If they were smart, we wouldn’t have spent the last two years on this xenophobe-appeasing nonsense.
- ineedasername 8y ago
  This might, however, be the next step in the political game being played by factions interested in having a new referendum.
- tunesmith 8y ago
  What I don't understand (and I am very ignorant!) is why the initial vote can't just be looked at as a stage in the decision process. Time has gone on, and the public has become more educated as to what the true effects of Brexit will be. Even leaving aside the question of how dishonest the pro-Brexit arguments were. It just seems reasonable to have another vote.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    > It just seems reasonable to have another vote. It seems absolutely unreasonable to me. It's hard to measure how certain tactics influenced the vote on either side. The voting process needs to be done with confidence and we should not so easily assume our peers are misinformed and/or so easily swayed. The efforts put forth by legitimate actors to campaign for their cause goes for not, as does confidence in the democratic process, when the outcome is just thrown away.
    - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
      The voting process does need to be done with confidence. In the first vote Leave were referred to the police for illegality, and they still haven't provided a full account of their funding - at least some of which seems very likely to have come from foreign sources. This is explicitly and very clearly not legal, because foreign money has no business trying to influence the vote in a sovereign British matter. So a People's Vote would be the first honest vote.
      - moduspol 8y ago
        Cases like these could be made after any election ever, and we're going down a dark road by presuming this time is any different.
  - MatekCopatek 8y ago
    Because this would imply a public referendum is impotent - if you don't like the outcome, you can just keep campaigning and try again later.
    - zimpenfish 8y ago
      It was a non-binding referendum - they could have “carefully examined” the result for a week and then tossed it in the trash, politely declining the “advice” of the populace.
      - 8y ago
- scarmig 8y ago
  Yes, but there was no chance of article 50 being revoked while May's deal was still on the table. Now it's a choice between revoking it and a hard Brexit. Which is the only way we'd ever get to a state where it might be revoked. EU courts have, IIRC, ruled that Britain can unilaterally revoke article 50, so now it's all up to elected MPs to figure out a way forward. So the fate of the UK rests on the good judgment and sensibility of Jeremy Corbyn.
  - PaulRobinson 8y ago
    Rescinding it would require a vote of Parliament on a motion to revoke it. Such a motion is unlikely to be carried right now.
  - RugnirViking 8y ago
    I'm just hoping Jeremy Corbyn is playing the long game of claiming to be one way but then acting another to fake out the prime minister. Same as he did with stating that he was not going to be appearing on the televised debates like may, until changing his mind at the last second, showing up anyway and showing her up.
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  Yes, the deal was likely scrapped for the retarded reason that half of its proponents figured the deal wasn’t brexit enough, and saw the opportunity to shoot it down with no care for what to do with the resulting mess.
- switch007 8y ago
  > Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. I don't feel you clarified anything. Do you mean if article 50 isn't revoked that the UK will leave the EU (true if nothing else happens) or that there are no circumstances under which the UK can remain in the EU?
  - MatekCopatek 8y ago
    Revoking article 50 means canceling brexit. They can still do it, but no major party currently supports it. If they don't revoke it, they have to leave on March 30th. This can happen through some kind of deal with EU (a potential one was negotiated but shot down by todays vote) or without any deal.
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    The House of Commons need to vote to rescind Article 50 before March 30th otherwise the UK will automatically leave the EU with no deal. There's currently no legislation, implied legislation, promises, or assurances from either the government or opposition to do so. Essentially until Article 50 is withdrawn, the UK continues to march forward towards hard Brexit. A successful vote today on Theresa May's deal would have assured a hard Brexit. The vote failing however hasn't resulted in "remain," it has simply placed the UK into an unknown state with automatic hard Brexit still lurking on the horizon.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  A motion to suspend A50 will be tabled in the next week or so. Yvette Cooper (Lab) asked the Speaker about it - most likely as a way of tipping off the public - and the Speaker said that if a motion is tabled, he will allow a vote on it. It's now very unlikely that the UK will be leaving the EU. Only a tiny minority of zealots in Parliament want No Deal. The most likely alternative is a People's Vote and a win for Remain.
- RugnirViking 8y ago
  bookies odds are at 83% for the uk to remain in the EU past march, and the pound is up following the annoucement. Add to this the fact that the SNP and most remain voting MPs voted against this deal, and I reckon theres a significant likelihood of at least something happening
lawn 8y ago
It's interesting to see this popular sentiment at the same time as the EU is loudly complained about concerning their new internet rules.
- TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
  The Copyright Directive is awful, sure, but the UK has orders of magnitude bigger fish to fry right now.
- blibble 8y ago
  don't let the echo chamber fool you: the popular sentiment remains as it was on the day of the vote the polls have hardly moved despite the political fuss
  - alexgmcm 8y ago
    Ah yes, that magnificent majority of 52%..
jcranmer 8y ago
The "best" solution to this problem is to cancel Brexit. Even that solution would cause a massive political blowback and only deepen the current divides that exist today. The "fantasy" solution is that the government can somehow negotiate a better deal for Brexit. But this is pure fantasy. For starters, there is severe disagreement as to what kind of deal ought to be pursued among the people who dislike May's deal. Most of the Brexiteers want a "hard" Brexit, which means in practice that they want all the goodies of being in the EU without any pain whatsoever (this is kind of like expecting the Pope to appoint a Muslim imam to the College of Cardinals). This also runs into the problem that it is very risky to reopen strife in Northern Ireland, which was cooled in large part by the effective removal of a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. The "crazy" solution is to bail out with no deal. Very few people actually want this--taken literally, it means things like "you can't fly between UK and Europe;" the hope is that by playing brinksmanship, none of the horribles actually happen. So yes, it is a slow motion train wreck. There's no easy way out.
- UK-Al05 8y ago
  Most brexiters I know admit that a hard brexit would be bad economically. But are willing to pay the cost
  - shmerl 8y ago
    > Most brexiters I know admit that a hard brexit would be bad economically. They are doing it now, because they can't contradict obvious truth. Before they were hyping how good it would be, to brainwash the masses, knowing full well it won't be good.
- CodeGlitch 8y ago
  "you can't fly between UK and Europe;" These problems are temporary - do not believe all the scaremongering. The same goes for the economy. Life well go on for christ's sake.
  - ploika 8y ago
    There's a serious chance that life will not go on for some in Northern Ireland. People might die there as a direct result of this. Jo Cox already died in England. This is not scaremongering.

Someone1234 8y ago

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no implied action on article 50.

shmerl 8y ago
If they are smart, they'll axe Brexit completely now and admit how they misled everyone about its benefits.
- zimpenfish 8y ago
  If they were smart, we wouldn’t have spent the last two years on this xenophobe-appeasing nonsense.
ineedasername 8y ago
This might, however, be the next step in the political game being played by factions interested in having a new referendum.
tunesmith 8y ago
What I don't understand (and I am very ignorant!) is why the initial vote can't just be looked at as a stage in the decision process. Time has gone on, and the public has become more educated as to what the true effects of Brexit will be. Even leaving aside the question of how dishonest the pro-Brexit arguments were. It just seems reasonable to have another vote.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > It just seems reasonable to have another vote. It seems absolutely unreasonable to me. It's hard to measure how certain tactics influenced the vote on either side. The voting process needs to be done with confidence and we should not so easily assume our peers are misinformed and/or so easily swayed. The efforts put forth by legitimate actors to campaign for their cause goes for not, as does confidence in the democratic process, when the outcome is just thrown away.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    The voting process does need to be done with confidence. In the first vote Leave were referred to the police for illegality, and they still haven't provided a full account of their funding - at least some of which seems very likely to have come from foreign sources. This is explicitly and very clearly not legal, because foreign money has no business trying to influence the vote in a sovereign British matter. So a People's Vote would be the first honest vote.
    - moduspol 8y ago
      Cases like these could be made after any election ever, and we're going down a dark road by presuming this time is any different.
- MatekCopatek 8y ago
  Because this would imply a public referendum is impotent - if you don't like the outcome, you can just keep campaigning and try again later.
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    It was a non-binding referendum - they could have “carefully examined” the result for a week and then tossed it in the trash, politely declining the “advice” of the populace.
    - 8y ago
scarmig 8y ago
Yes, but there was no chance of article 50 being revoked while May's deal was still on the table. Now it's a choice between revoking it and a hard Brexit. Which is the only way we'd ever get to a state where it might be revoked. EU courts have, IIRC, ruled that Britain can unilaterally revoke article 50, so now it's all up to elected MPs to figure out a way forward. So the fate of the UK rests on the good judgment and sensibility of Jeremy Corbyn.
- PaulRobinson 8y ago
  Rescinding it would require a vote of Parliament on a motion to revoke it. Such a motion is unlikely to be carried right now.
- RugnirViking 8y ago
  I'm just hoping Jeremy Corbyn is playing the long game of claiming to be one way but then acting another to fake out the prime minister. Same as he did with stating that he was not going to be appearing on the televised debates like may, until changing his mind at the last second, showing up anyway and showing her up.
SiempreViernes 8y ago
Yes, the deal was likely scrapped for the retarded reason that half of its proponents figured the deal wasn’t brexit enough, and saw the opportunity to shoot it down with no care for what to do with the resulting mess.
switch007 8y ago
> Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. I don't feel you clarified anything. Do you mean if article 50 isn't revoked that the UK will leave the EU (true if nothing else happens) or that there are no circumstances under which the UK can remain in the EU?
- MatekCopatek 8y ago
  Revoking article 50 means canceling brexit. They can still do it, but no major party currently supports it. If they don't revoke it, they have to leave on March 30th. This can happen through some kind of deal with EU (a potential one was negotiated but shot down by todays vote) or without any deal.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  The House of Commons need to vote to rescind Article 50 before March 30th otherwise the UK will automatically leave the EU with no deal. There's currently no legislation, implied legislation, promises, or assurances from either the government or opposition to do so. Essentially until Article 50 is withdrawn, the UK continues to march forward towards hard Brexit. A successful vote today on Theresa May's deal would have assured a hard Brexit. The vote failing however hasn't resulted in "remain," it has simply placed the UK into an unknown state with automatic hard Brexit still lurking on the horizon.
TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
A motion to suspend A50 will be tabled in the next week or so. Yvette Cooper (Lab) asked the Speaker about it - most likely as a way of tipping off the public - and the Speaker said that if a motion is tabled, he will allow a vote on it. It's now very unlikely that the UK will be leaving the EU. Only a tiny minority of zealots in Parliament want No Deal. The most likely alternative is a People's Vote and a win for Remain.
RugnirViking 8y ago
bookies odds are at 83% for the uk to remain in the EU past march, and the pound is up following the annoucement. Add to this the fact that the SNP and most remain voting MPs voted against this deal, and I reckon theres a significant likelihood of at least something happening

lawn 8y ago

It's interesting to see this popular sentiment at the same time as the EU is loudly complained about concerning their new internet rules.

TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
The Copyright Directive is awful, sure, but the UK has orders of magnitude bigger fish to fry right now.
blibble 8y ago
don't let the echo chamber fool you: the popular sentiment remains as it was on the day of the vote the polls have hardly moved despite the political fuss
- alexgmcm 8y ago
  Ah yes, that magnificent majority of 52%..

jcranmer 8y ago

The "best" solution to this problem is to cancel Brexit. Even that solution would cause a massive political blowback and only deepen the current divides that exist today. The "fantasy" solution is that the government can somehow negotiate a better deal for Brexit. But this is pure fantasy. For starters, there is severe disagreement as to what kind of deal ought to be pursued among the people who dislike May's deal. Most of the Brexiteers want a "hard" Brexit, which means in practice that they want all the goodies of being in the EU without any pain whatsoever (this is kind of like expecting the Pope to appoint a Muslim imam to the College of Cardinals). This also runs into the problem that it is very risky to reopen strife in Northern Ireland, which was cooled in large part by the effective removal of a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. The "crazy" solution is to bail out with no deal. Very few people actually want this--taken literally, it means things like "you can't fly between UK and Europe;" the hope is that by playing brinksmanship, none of the horribles actually happen. So yes, it is a slow motion train wreck. There's no easy way out.

UK-Al05 8y ago
Most brexiters I know admit that a hard brexit would be bad economically. But are willing to pay the cost
- shmerl 8y ago
  > Most brexiters I know admit that a hard brexit would be bad economically. They are doing it now, because they can't contradict obvious truth. Before they were hyping how good it would be, to brainwash the masses, knowing full well it won't be good.
CodeGlitch 8y ago
"you can't fly between UK and Europe;" These problems are temporary - do not believe all the scaremongering. The same goes for the economy. Life well go on for christ's sake.
- ploika 8y ago
  There's a serious chance that life will not go on for some in Northern Ireland. People might die there as a direct result of this. Jo Cox already died in England. This is not scaremongering.