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From what I've read about Tesla's software this could be a bold move. Between the infotainment system, onboard Linux computer, autopilot, self-driving hardware

From what I've read about Tesla's software this could be a bold move. Between the infotainment system, onboard Linux computer, autopilot, self-driving hardware, OTA updates, mobile apps, and the amount they phone home, Tesla are probably doing some of the most advanced computing in any consumer car (some deconstructions have suggested they are miles ahead here, pardon the pun). This is great, but it all comes with additional surface area for attacks, and software engineers have spoken out about the fast paced shipping that happens at Tesla and the corners that are cut as a result.

astrodust 8y ago
There's no doubt someone's getting a free car.
- sametmax 8y ago
  That's the goal isn't it ? Finding critical flaws in a super complex system you built for years and sell to the entire world. For just the price of a car. Or, miracle occurs, nobody finds anything and you get some killer PR. That's a very good deal.
  - LeifCarrotson 8y ago
    You don't think they could ask their own salaried engineers and get a nice long list of secured-by-obscurity vulnerabilities?
    - sametmax 8y ago
      We are talking about a company that made electrical vehicules economically realistic in a oil-addidcted world. I think it's safe to think they have considered that already :) Would you say it's unlikely they just maxed out what they can do internally and want new eyes to work on it ?
      - Someone1234 8y ago
        > We are talking about a company that made electrical vehicules economically realistic in a oil-addidcted world. When did that occur? They're still selling $40K+ cars while their competitors are selling cars in the $20K range; Tesla cars continue not to make financial sense, they're a luxury good. Dollar per dollar the best bang for your buck is still likely hybrid vehicles followed by the cheapest electric vehicle you can find.
        sametmax 8y ago
        It happened when we shifted from "electrical cars are hippie nonsense" to "we think there is a strong possibility in a not so distance future they will replace most oil based cars". They enabled that thinking. It just didn't exist before their first roadster.
        cheald 8y ago
        It wasn't very long ago that electric cars were considered nothing more than an elaborate joke which would never command equal consideration with gasoline-powered cars. The Roadster definitely challenged a lot of those assumptions. Tesla proved they could make an electric car people wanted, rather than one they hated but tolerated out of a sense of moral obligation.
        Someone1234 8y ago
        You're arguing a completely different point than the one I responded to. > made electrical vehicules economically realistic
        cheald 8y ago
        I don't think I am - consumer acceptance is a critical part of economic viability. A product which nobody wants to buy isn't a viable alternative, regardless of price point. To cast some perspective, Nissan has sold about 380k Leafs - the most popular electric car in the world - worldwide over the past 8 years. Tesla has shipped over 160k Model 3s in the US alone over the past 14 months (and currently continues to sell another 20k or so per month). The vehicle market is huge, and Tesla has by no means conquered it, but they've put a much larger dent in it than any other electric vehicle manufacturer, and have been instrumental in changing public opinion on EVs.
    - _ph_ 8y ago
      If they want the best security, they should have a bounty program both internally and externally. Of course, one would expect the Tesla engineers to find bugs first, as they have earlier and closer access to the system. Such bug/exploit finding should be appropriately rewarded. But the closer you are working with a product, the more obvious things one might miss. I often miss bugs in my own code, while I am great at finding them in my coworkers code :). So external bounty programs attrackt a wide variety of clever people with an idependant mindset.
  - astrodust 8y ago
    There's a zero percent chance that this car is not pwned. Those that have spoken out about Tesla's technical practices have described a situation so wildly out of control it's amazing their entire fleet hasn't been remote bricked.
mikejb 8y ago
There was a previous discussion [1] around a former Tesla employee discussing some of the "wtf" aspects of the software on Tesla vehicles. I'm willing to bet that some critical flaws will be found, as "fast development" and "secure development" are hard to get together, and it's safe to assume that Tesla ticks the "fast development" checkbox. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17835760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17835760
- walrus01 8y ago
  If even 30% of what that guy is claiming is true, the Model S has a huge attack surface. Hopefully things have improved since those claims were made.
- friedman23 8y ago
  > as "fast development" and "secure development" are hard to get together This is just not true. Software that often goes unupdated is the most insecure software of all. If Teslas are more insecure than other vehicles it will simply be because their software is more complex than the competition.
  - mikejb 8y ago
    > This is just not true. Software that often goes unupdated is the most insecure software of all. You'll note that I never made comparisons on how secure Tesla software is in comparison to other vehicles, or that Tesla's software would be the "most insecure software of all". What I said is that Tesla's development is fast-paced, and this is difficult to do whilst maintaining software security. I agree with you that outdated software is a huge security risk, but I don't see how that contradicts with my statement on Tesla's software.
  - Karunamon 8y ago
    You're both right in a way. Not having stuff up to date will definitely leave you vulnerable, but if the stories about Tesla's internals are valid, they are not expending the time necessary to ensure they don't write a boatload of security bugs in the first place.
  - 8y ago
HALtheWise 8y ago
On the plus side, Tesla seems to be aware of those risks, and also has a cyber security team that is miles ahead of other automakers. For example, there are no master passwords that service personnel can use, instead they use public key cryptography which generates a rotating password. Most Tesla "hacks" have required physical access as a result (i.e. pulling out the screen and finding an Ethernet jack), although a few researchers have managed remote attacks.
- PinguTS 8y ago
  On the plus side, other automakers do not have remote access as such. All the other automakers "hacks" have required physical access as a result, although a few researchers (2 teams only) have managed remote attacks.
  - close04 8y ago
    Unfortunately most other manufacturers also still heavily rely on the woefully outdated and insecure CAN bus. Which means remotely hacking the poorly secured infotainment system can give you access to critical systems. Random example [0]. Your thought shouldn't be a comforting one. [0] https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/ https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed...
    - SEJeff 8y ago
      Absolutely no idea why you're being downvoted here when this is in fact the truth. Virtually all automotive computers use the CAN bus in literally ever modern car in existence.
      - antoinealb 8y ago
        It might be because Tesla also uses CAN bus, whereas the parent post implies that only "other automakers" do it. Plus, CAN bus is just layer 2/3, you could build secure extensions on top of it, but I agree it is insecure by default.
Shivetya 8y ago
<rant/ramble on> OTA is great but my experience with my TM3 is clouded by one issue, I want blue tooth audio support to be enhanced so I do not have to use my phone to select tracks, playlists, artists, and such. Instead what was the big update of near the holiday season, fart humor, holiday fireplace like a screen saver, and the old Atari pole position game. Seriously? Yeah I know they also updated auto pilot, put in a new animation for setting vents, and such, but I really don't need the easter eggs when there are so many programmable features this car should already have and audio support including the mentioned blue tooth support is all easily a decade behind what other cars have. hell our energy meter is a joke, it won't break out power used to move from that to maintain the pack, doesn't want to count when I am not moving, and blends in the HVAC. Auto hi beams that are spastic and auto wipers that are just, well odd. Sorry for the ramble but the security stunt is one thing but non essential crap like easter eggs is just more things to break or be exploited. bring the cars customer facing electronics up to date before farting around more. love my car, have serious doubts about their priorities.
- zaroth 8y ago
  I’m glad you acknowledge they shipped a major autopilot update at the same time. Navigate on Autopilot (Beta) suggests lane changes but does not proceed without confirmation. But autonomous lane changing is live in Tesla internal test vehicles and will roll out after more testing. Getting on and off the highway and changing lanes is a step up, so they are shipping real features. They enhanced the cruise to be more aware of sharp curves (will adapt speed, even below your set point, in advance of a curve). They also added blind spot monitoring showing vehicles behind and to the sides which had not been displayed on the guidance system previously. They also distinguish betweeen the type of cars with different icons for trucks, buses, and SUVs. They also added rudimentary pedestrian detection and a very goofy pedestrian icon on the guidance display. And also dash cam support which had been much requested. I agree with you that the media control from the phone is lacking. The good thing is I’m confident an update will come along one day and make it better. More than I can say for any other car! Lastly, the humorous apps have a purpose. My 6 year old son is absolutely in love with the Tesla and now begs to take my car instead of moms Mercedes. He asks me at least once a week about when I’m going to get the Roadster with the rocket boosters. (As if!) It’s genius marketing even if it is a bit silly.
walrus01 8y ago
One of the interesting things I've read about Tesla's OTA updates, is that for common sense "holy shit that was not supposed to happen" type reasons, they push updates to discrete batches of cars at a time, wait to make sure that owners are not reporting weirdness at a rate any higher than the normal background noise, probably do some analysis on the self-reported telemetry, and then proceed with pushing updates to additional VIN numbers. It's definitely not a "push to all cars" type thing.
- brokenmachine 8y ago
  That's just how my smart TV manufacturer does it too. If they can push to batches of cars then they can push to all cars if they want to.
mtgx 8y ago
Even beyond all that, I assume what will be missing from this contest is someone hacking Tesla's servers to send malicious updates to the cars. I don't think something like this would be allowed in the contest, which is a shame, because it's probably what most of those who want to "hack Teslas" in the real world will attempt to do.
dwighttk 8y ago
if I won this one, I think I'd take the cash equivalent, thank you very much...
cmiller1 8y ago
If the OTA updates are compromised or some other remote vulnerability is found I'd consider that a major flaw. However, some of the Tesla "hacks" I've seen show up in the past involve plugging a laptop into the inside of the car. If you've got physical access to the inside of ANY car you can do some serious damage. Doesn't take a "l33t hax0r" to cut some brake lines or undo an oil pan plug.
- untog 8y ago
  I'd argue those aren't quite equivalent. If I was the passenger in a Tesla taxi I might be able to plug something in to add tracking software or who knows what to the car without the driver knowing. As autopilot improves I might be able to tell the car to up and drive over to my house in the middle of the night. Not exactly the same as cutting brake lines.
  - danpalmer 8y ago
    The compute module is under the back seat in the Model 3 I believe. That's all of the major components, might be tricky but someone who doesn't care about damaging the seat may well be able to get in unnoticed while riding in a Tesla taxi.
    - Joky 8y ago
      It is behind the glovebox
    - gibolt 8y ago
      Is access to it lockable? Would be useful for a taxi usecase
      - billhathaway 8y ago
        In the model 3, the only way to access the glovebox is to press the button on the console. I'm sure this would be disabled when in self-driving taxi mode.
    - 8y ago
kuschku 8y ago
The infotainment system, "autopilot" (or rather, driving assistant systems), OTA ability for all software, and apps in most recent high-end cars are actually very similar in scope to what Tesla provides, just very differently constructed (with a much larger focus on security in competing cars). The interesting part is Tesla shipping this in the 45'000$ Model 3 while competitors at the moment are only shipping this in much more expensive models.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
I actually wouldn't be suprised, that 1 or multiple days before the contest an OTA is send out. Which would leave a lot of entrants frustrated. That's what i would do in Tesla's case, just to make sure that a lot is fixed. ( if it's possible ofc.)
Latteland 8y ago
They've already been through rounds of attacks and fixes. They've paid people and publically discussed the vulunerabilities that were discovered. They have separate computing systems for the ui (which must have endless attack surfaces since it's an old webkit browser, please find a lot of problems so they will update it) and the drivetrain. If you don't have a tesla it's very interesting how it works. The ui system can be rebooted while the car is on and driving, it's completely separate.

astrodust 8y ago

There's no doubt someone's getting a free car.

sametmax 8y ago
That's the goal isn't it ? Finding critical flaws in a super complex system you built for years and sell to the entire world. For just the price of a car. Or, miracle occurs, nobody finds anything and you get some killer PR. That's a very good deal.
- LeifCarrotson 8y ago
  You don't think they could ask their own salaried engineers and get a nice long list of secured-by-obscurity vulnerabilities?
  - sametmax 8y ago
    We are talking about a company that made electrical vehicules economically realistic in a oil-addidcted world. I think it's safe to think they have considered that already :) Would you say it's unlikely they just maxed out what they can do internally and want new eyes to work on it ?
    - Someone1234 8y ago
      > We are talking about a company that made electrical vehicules economically realistic in a oil-addidcted world. When did that occur? They're still selling $40K+ cars while their competitors are selling cars in the $20K range; Tesla cars continue not to make financial sense, they're a luxury good. Dollar per dollar the best bang for your buck is still likely hybrid vehicles followed by the cheapest electric vehicle you can find.
      - sametmax 8y ago
        It happened when we shifted from "electrical cars are hippie nonsense" to "we think there is a strong possibility in a not so distance future they will replace most oil based cars". They enabled that thinking. It just didn't exist before their first roadster.
      - cheald 8y ago
        It wasn't very long ago that electric cars were considered nothing more than an elaborate joke which would never command equal consideration with gasoline-powered cars. The Roadster definitely challenged a lot of those assumptions. Tesla proved they could make an electric car people wanted, rather than one they hated but tolerated out of a sense of moral obligation.
        Someone1234 8y ago
        You're arguing a completely different point than the one I responded to. > made electrical vehicules economically realistic
        cheald 8y ago
        I don't think I am - consumer acceptance is a critical part of economic viability. A product which nobody wants to buy isn't a viable alternative, regardless of price point. To cast some perspective, Nissan has sold about 380k Leafs - the most popular electric car in the world - worldwide over the past 8 years. Tesla has shipped over 160k Model 3s in the US alone over the past 14 months (and currently continues to sell another 20k or so per month). The vehicle market is huge, and Tesla has by no means conquered it, but they've put a much larger dent in it than any other electric vehicle manufacturer, and have been instrumental in changing public opinion on EVs.
  - _ph_ 8y ago
    If they want the best security, they should have a bounty program both internally and externally. Of course, one would expect the Tesla engineers to find bugs first, as they have earlier and closer access to the system. Such bug/exploit finding should be appropriately rewarded. But the closer you are working with a product, the more obvious things one might miss. I often miss bugs in my own code, while I am great at finding them in my coworkers code :). So external bounty programs attrackt a wide variety of clever people with an idependant mindset.
- astrodust 8y ago
  There's a zero percent chance that this car is not pwned. Those that have spoken out about Tesla's technical practices have described a situation so wildly out of control it's amazing their entire fleet hasn't been remote bricked.

mikejb 8y ago

There was a previous discussion [1] around a former Tesla employee discussing some of the "wtf" aspects of the software on Tesla vehicles. I'm willing to bet that some critical flaws will be found, as "fast development" and "secure development" are hard to get together, and it's safe to assume that Tesla ticks the "fast development" checkbox. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17835760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17835760

walrus01 8y ago
If even 30% of what that guy is claiming is true, the Model S has a huge attack surface. Hopefully things have improved since those claims were made.
friedman23 8y ago
> as "fast development" and "secure development" are hard to get together This is just not true. Software that often goes unupdated is the most insecure software of all. If Teslas are more insecure than other vehicles it will simply be because their software is more complex than the competition.
- mikejb 8y ago
  > This is just not true. Software that often goes unupdated is the most insecure software of all. You'll note that I never made comparisons on how secure Tesla software is in comparison to other vehicles, or that Tesla's software would be the "most insecure software of all". What I said is that Tesla's development is fast-paced, and this is difficult to do whilst maintaining software security. I agree with you that outdated software is a huge security risk, but I don't see how that contradicts with my statement on Tesla's software.
- Karunamon 8y ago
  You're both right in a way. Not having stuff up to date will definitely leave you vulnerable, but if the stories about Tesla's internals are valid, they are not expending the time necessary to ensure they don't write a boatload of security bugs in the first place.
- 8y ago

HALtheWise 8y ago

On the plus side, Tesla seems to be aware of those risks, and also has a cyber security team that is miles ahead of other automakers. For example, there are no master passwords that service personnel can use, instead they use public key cryptography which generates a rotating password. Most Tesla "hacks" have required physical access as a result (i.e. pulling out the screen and finding an Ethernet jack), although a few researchers have managed remote attacks.

PinguTS 8y ago
On the plus side, other automakers do not have remote access as such. All the other automakers "hacks" have required physical access as a result, although a few researchers (2 teams only) have managed remote attacks.
- close04 8y ago
  Unfortunately most other manufacturers also still heavily rely on the woefully outdated and insecure CAN bus. Which means remotely hacking the poorly secured infotainment system can give you access to critical systems. Random example [0]. Your thought shouldn't be a comforting one. [0] https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/ https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed...
  - SEJeff 8y ago
    Absolutely no idea why you're being downvoted here when this is in fact the truth. Virtually all automotive computers use the CAN bus in literally ever modern car in existence.
    - antoinealb 8y ago
      It might be because Tesla also uses CAN bus, whereas the parent post implies that only "other automakers" do it. Plus, CAN bus is just layer 2/3, you could build secure extensions on top of it, but I agree it is insecure by default.

Shivetya 8y ago

<rant/ramble on> OTA is great but my experience with my TM3 is clouded by one issue, I want blue tooth audio support to be enhanced so I do not have to use my phone to select tracks, playlists, artists, and such. Instead what was the big update of near the holiday season, fart humor, holiday fireplace like a screen saver, and the old Atari pole position game. Seriously? Yeah I know they also updated auto pilot, put in a new animation for setting vents, and such, but I really don't need the easter eggs when there are so many programmable features this car should already have and audio support including the mentioned blue tooth support is all easily a decade behind what other cars have. hell our energy meter is a joke, it won't break out power used to move from that to maintain the pack, doesn't want to count when I am not moving, and blends in the HVAC. Auto hi beams that are spastic and auto wipers that are just, well odd. Sorry for the ramble but the security stunt is one thing but non essential crap like easter eggs is just more things to break or be exploited. bring the cars customer facing electronics up to date before farting around more. love my car, have serious doubts about their priorities.

zaroth 8y ago
I’m glad you acknowledge they shipped a major autopilot update at the same time. Navigate on Autopilot (Beta) suggests lane changes but does not proceed without confirmation. But autonomous lane changing is live in Tesla internal test vehicles and will roll out after more testing. Getting on and off the highway and changing lanes is a step up, so they are shipping real features. They enhanced the cruise to be more aware of sharp curves (will adapt speed, even below your set point, in advance of a curve). They also added blind spot monitoring showing vehicles behind and to the sides which had not been displayed on the guidance system previously. They also distinguish betweeen the type of cars with different icons for trucks, buses, and SUVs. They also added rudimentary pedestrian detection and a very goofy pedestrian icon on the guidance display. And also dash cam support which had been much requested. I agree with you that the media control from the phone is lacking. The good thing is I’m confident an update will come along one day and make it better. More than I can say for any other car! Lastly, the humorous apps have a purpose. My 6 year old son is absolutely in love with the Tesla and now begs to take my car instead of moms Mercedes. He asks me at least once a week about when I’m going to get the Roadster with the rocket boosters. (As if!) It’s genius marketing even if it is a bit silly.

walrus01 8y ago

One of the interesting things I've read about Tesla's OTA updates, is that for common sense "holy shit that was not supposed to happen" type reasons, they push updates to discrete batches of cars at a time, wait to make sure that owners are not reporting weirdness at a rate any higher than the normal background noise, probably do some analysis on the self-reported telemetry, and then proceed with pushing updates to additional VIN numbers. It's definitely not a "push to all cars" type thing.

brokenmachine 8y ago
That's just how my smart TV manufacturer does it too. If they can push to batches of cars then they can push to all cars if they want to.

mtgx 8y ago

Even beyond all that, I assume what will be missing from this contest is someone hacking Tesla's servers to send malicious updates to the cars. I don't think something like this would be allowed in the contest, which is a shame, because it's probably what most of those who want to "hack Teslas" in the real world will attempt to do.

dwighttk 8y ago

if I won this one, I think I'd take the cash equivalent, thank you very much...

cmiller1 8y ago

If the OTA updates are compromised or some other remote vulnerability is found I'd consider that a major flaw. However, some of the Tesla "hacks" I've seen show up in the past involve plugging a laptop into the inside of the car. If you've got physical access to the inside of ANY car you can do some serious damage. Doesn't take a "l33t hax0r" to cut some brake lines or undo an oil pan plug.

untog 8y ago
I'd argue those aren't quite equivalent. If I was the passenger in a Tesla taxi I might be able to plug something in to add tracking software or who knows what to the car without the driver knowing. As autopilot improves I might be able to tell the car to up and drive over to my house in the middle of the night. Not exactly the same as cutting brake lines.
- danpalmer 8y ago
  The compute module is under the back seat in the Model 3 I believe. That's all of the major components, might be tricky but someone who doesn't care about damaging the seat may well be able to get in unnoticed while riding in a Tesla taxi.
  - Joky 8y ago
    It is behind the glovebox
  - gibolt 8y ago
    Is access to it lockable? Would be useful for a taxi usecase
    - billhathaway 8y ago
      In the model 3, the only way to access the glovebox is to press the button on the console. I'm sure this would be disabled when in self-driving taxi mode.
  - 8y ago

kuschku 8y ago

The infotainment system, "autopilot" (or rather, driving assistant systems), OTA ability for all software, and apps in most recent high-end cars are actually very similar in scope to what Tesla provides, just very differently constructed (with a much larger focus on security in competing cars). The interesting part is Tesla shipping this in the 45'000$ Model 3 while competitors at the moment are only shipping this in much more expensive models.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

I actually wouldn't be suprised, that 1 or multiple days before the contest an OTA is send out. Which would leave a lot of entrants frustrated. That's what i would do in Tesla's case, just to make sure that a lot is fixed. ( if it's possible ofc.)

Latteland 8y ago

They've already been through rounds of attacks and fixes. They've paid people and publically discussed the vulunerabilities that were discovered. They have separate computing systems for the ui (which must have endless attack surfaces since it's an old webkit browser, please find a lot of problems so they will update it) and the drivetrain. If you don't have a tesla it's very interesting how it works. The ui system can be rebooted while the car is on and driving, it's completely separate.