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Tangent: I don’t think I’ve ever been more incensed than when I learned Harley Davidsons are quiet out of the factory and people make them loud. And while I can

Tangent: I don’t think I’ve ever been more incensed than when I learned Harley Davidsons are quiet out of the factory and people make them loud. And while I can get a ticket for something trivial, I’ve never heard of someone getting a ticket for riding a motorcycle or car that’s obnoxiously loud and can be heard a mile away. My point, I guess, cities, townships, what have you, don’t care about noise.

reaperducer 8y ago
My point, I guess, cities, townships, what have you, don’t care about noise. Cities, townships, what have you, will care about whatever their active constituents tell them to. It took a few years, but a neighborhood organization managed to get a crackdown on motorcycle noise in Chicago. I don't know if it worked because I moved away before it went into effect. But there was a ton of press coverage for a very long time, so there's no way the offending riders could know that people don't like them. Loud Motorcycles In Alderman's Crosshairs As LSD Noise Monitoring Starts: https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170824/lincoln-park/loud-motorcycles-aldermans-crosshairs-as-lsd-noise-monitoring-starts/ https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170824/lincoln-park/loud-m...
- mbrumlow 8y ago
  > My point, I guess, cities, townships, what have you, don’t care about noise. I think the poster was referring to active constituents. But I think you are wrong. I don't know of anybody who wants a loud car or bike trekking by their house. But yet it still happens over and over. It is unclear if enough "active constituents" are not complaining or they are ignored.
  - cm2187 8y ago
    I don't but I know some people are delighted at the sound of some sport cars.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      I don't but I know some people are delighted at the sound of some sport cars. I don't disagree. But in context. On track day at the local race track? Sure. At a professional sporting event? Great. Going down a residential street when people are trying to sleep? No way.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    I live on a hill with a busy intersection at the bottom. I get to listen to trucks with jake brakes going down the hill and people accelerating out of the intersection. I don't exactly live somewhere high class so vehicles with rusted out exhausts and Civics with fart cans abound. It doesn't bother me one bit. You get used to it. It's people in gated communities and quiet suburban neighborhoods where there is rarely much noise who complain about noise because the baseline amount of noise they experience is so low that every single loud noise is highly noticeable.
    - oarsinsync 8y ago
      Unsure why you're being downvoted, but in my experience, this is absolutely correct. When I lived on a busy intersection, the noise level was always there, it just became background. When I lived near a flightpath, the sound of airlines was regularly there, and it also just became background. I now live in a very quiet area, and every passing motorbike is a disturbance. Then again, the other thing that's changed is my age and expectations of life. Whether or not that's related or not, I dunno.
      - SilasX 8y ago
        I've had the opposite experience. I lived in downtown SF. The noise of a loud motorcycle going by is substantively different from the ordinary background noise of city life. Unlike every other noise, you can't e.g. talk while it's going by. There is very good reason to treat it differently from the usual honks and airbrakes.
tylerjwilk00 8y ago
I am not advocating loud motorcycles but as a rider I know from experience that cars on the roads will pay more attention and give more caution to a louder motorcycle. A simple fender bender on a motorcycle can be fatal which is the reasoning behind the phrase "Loud pipes save lives." Are some people doing it to be obnoxious? Probably. Are some people doing it out of the desire for increased safety? Yes.
- brokenmachine 8y ago
  My car would be safer with a super-loud siren that blares continuously to announce my prescence, but I don't do it because I live in a society and I wouldn't like it if everyone else did that.
  - erbium 8y ago
    You won't die in a fender-bender in a car.
- breatheoften 8y ago
  Harley’s are terrible motorcycles with severe safety compromising design flaws made for stylistic reasons — the argument that they should be made loud for real safety reasons employs deeply flawed reasoning. I rode a (non Harley, well engineered) motorcycle for years and always thought the claim that you needed to make your bike loud to enhance perception was bollocks. The right answer is to always ride with the awareness that people can’t/don’t see you and plan lane position accordingly.
  - slap 8y ago
    > severe safety compromising design flaws made for stylistic reason Could you explain what exactly ?
    - breatheoften 8y ago
      People buy Harley’s for the twin cam engine which vibrates a lot and “if you have to ask why this is good then you wouldn’t understand”. The marketing for Harley’s is very much about buying into “worse is better” for “cool” factor — and for social signaling that you might know how to turn your own wrenches. The joke is that Harley owners spend more time in the garage with their bikes than riding them. They require a lot of maintenance to keep running. From a risk perspective, the onerously frequent maintenance requirements increase the chance of a mechanic introduced error having negative safety outcomes. The fact that every owner basically “has” to work on the bikes rather extensively means that they are more likely in general to be worked on by not so qualified mechanics. The extensive customization culture surrounding the bikes also comes with a lot of really easy ways for safety compromising designs to be introduced via ill thought out customization. These may seem like small factors but all of them represent much more real risks than the imagined safety benefit that might come by making your bike excessively loud. Someone telling you to ride a Harley and also telling you to make it loud for safety is not giving good safety advice — to maximize safe riding you should never try to lower the responsibility of the rider to be aware of other drivers not seeing them - you can’t make yourself more visible by being loud and shouldn’t encourage someone to think this will work and thereby encourage them to not proactively defend themselves from a driver who might not see them. There are other safety relevant issues with the bike design — notoriously bad brakes and gearboxes, poor suspension, heavy with a low center of gravity that makes turning a relatively higher effort activity for shorter riders and generally makes recovery from problem scenarios more difficult, the “Harley wobble” (yes wobble can happen with other bikes but it tends to be more severe with Harley’s) ... It’s probably also worth pointing out that there have been something like 4 large recalls in the last 5 years for clutch problems that can lead to sudden brake failure. Also, the twin cam engine design is inherently not long lasting with many failure modes which means breakdowns are common (engine failure/fluid leaks are not generally conducive to safety).
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
abakker 8y ago
FWIW, California changed the minimum ticket for noise violations on vehicles to $1000 this year. They are apparently cracking down on it, as they have abolished the “fix it ticket” that used to allow the vehicle to be repaired and then the ticket is commuted. Now, the officer must fine you.
- bigmattystyles 8y ago
  This is fantastic news!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Buttons840 8y ago
  I once had the exhaust pipe before my catalytic converter on my car fall out due to a bump and some rust that had been building up. My car suddenly became very very loud, louder than I had ever realized it could be. I was quite embarrassed while driving the car home, and soon got it fixed. It wasn't especially expensive to fix. If that happened in California I might get a $1000 ticket? Or is the large ticket only for intentionally loud and illegal exhausts.
  - morganvachon 8y ago
    I think in your specific case it would be up to the officer's discretion if you were pulled over for it. About 20 years ago I worked the night shift at a warehouse and my car's passenger side headlight went out on my way to work. I had time to stop at a parts dealer before they closed and picked up a new headlight, but I didn't have time to install it so I chucked it in the back seat and drove on to my job. I was pulled over right before pulling into work, and the trooper was reading me the riot act over the light. When I could get a word in I explained to him that it went out on me while driving, and I stopped to get one and planned to install it on my lunch break. I pointed to it in the back seat and showed him my receipt. He seemed pissed that his ranting was not necessary, but he didn't write me a ticket and instructed me to definitely install it that night because he'd be waiting for me on my trip home. Perhaps I was lucky to get a cop who wasn't so much of an asshole that he'd write me a ticket despite seeing my best intentions to deal with a situation that could happen to anyone. Then again, I could have been pulled over by a guy who would have started off nice and thanked me for being conscientious enough to stop for the part that night.
black-tea 8y ago
There is an electric BMW that has a loudspeaker in a fake exhaust pipe to make it sound like a petrol engine to people outside of the car. I think the negative effects of noise pollution are underestimated. It's never properly taken into account when people plan things. Part of it is many people don't understand just how soul destroying it can be (yet).
- jsty 8y ago
  > has a loudspeaker in a fake exhaust pipe to make it sound like a petrol engine This is however exceptionally helpful for blind people navigating near a road. I haven't seen the BMW in question so it might be unnecessarily loud, but electric cars are often so quiet you could barely hear one coming.
  - cm2187 8y ago
    But should blind people rely on sound to cross in the first place? Many european cities are pushing for more cycling. Bicycles are pretty much totally silent and can go as fast as a car typically goes in a busy city.
    - jsty 8y ago
      I don't think it would ever be the chosen option and guide dogs, human assistance, etc. would all be preferable. But sometimes those just won't be available. One of the more dangerous aspects is in areas where cars are reversing / manoeuvring at low speeds - e.g. car parks. I'm fully sighted and still occasionally have a near miss with an electric / hybrid that I haven't noticed reversing! Bicycles do present some measure of danger, albeit reduced thanks to the lower momentum & crushing power. Some material from the RNIB, a UK charity: https://www.rnib.org.uk/rnibconnect/silent-deadly-electric-hybrid-vehicles-sight-loss https://www.rnib.org.uk/rnibconnect/silent-deadly-electric-h...
  - black-tea 8y ago
    Are blind people stepping out in front of bicycles because they can't hear them?
Shivetya 8y ago
Oh please, I have owned two new ones, the last in 2017. They are not exactly "quiet" as new but not nearly as loud as those who straight pipe. After market pipes certified for road use still must meet Federal law. Plus recently as for more current models the EPA slapped HD with fines and future penalties over the modification of the engine and exhaust which really has cut down on the noise because HD will void your warranty with the EPA blessing if you use unapproved modifications which includes exhaust. Plus Harley isn't unique in attracting drivers/riders who make their exhaust system obnoxiously loud and yes they annoy many of their fellow HD riders too - they get to ride in the back of the pack. Plus if you are in California look up AB1824 which changed the loud exhaust regulations to assess a fine in every case. Used to be if you got pulled you could simply produce a receipt stating you fixed the loud exhaust and pay no fine but people were skirting that with obvious success. So yes, governments do care. Some HOA and Condo association ban all motorcycles because of noise. Now with regards to drones, noisy little suckers. The other issue is a private citizen is heavily restricted where they can even fly them. State parks are off limits in most states, any place where people gather of course is out, you can even be blocked from flying them on your property by many HOA and Condo associations (mentioned them before for similar reasons). Locally to me, Cobb County Georgia has an association for model aircraft that may support drones. They have their own field put in with tax dollars but "maintained" by user fees. Don't even think of using it until you pony up to two different organizations and an initiation fee and such. Yet places which are set aside for the legal use of drones may end up being this way unless the industry adapts. My father's recent DJI purchase did not automatically include the propeller guards, seems there is good profit in selling replacement blades. It definitely is noisy and I would expect research into blade technology can remedy some of that, surely the military has already done so.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  > My father's recent DJI purchase did not automatically include the propeller guards, seems there is good profit in selling replacement blades. you don't necessarily want prop guards most of the time. they make the props less efficient, which decreases aerodynamic performance and battery life.
  - 8y ago
bujak300 8y ago
Oh you can get a fine in Europe for a loud vehicle. It can even be seized by the cops.
morganvachon 8y ago
As far as laws dealing with vehicle noise pollution, it greatly depends on where you live. I'm in a relatively rural town that is considered part of the Metro Atlanta area, and we have a lot of strange laws as a result. For example, there is a local noise ordinance that allows police to ticket a driver for a noisy muffler on a car or truck any time of day or night, but motorcycles (which are often much louder around here) are exempt. The reason, of course, is that a few of the council members are also bikers, so they are putting their own interests above those of the community. There's been a proposal at town hall meetings to change the law to include any motorized vehicle, but it always gets tabled.
jfdi 8y ago
A reason motorcycles are loud (or made to be loud) is safety: when driving on highways or in busy areas, the idea is the noise makes the rider safer by offsetting their size disadvantage.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  I don't think the guys doing wheelies down the street in front of my house are particularly concerned about safety. I think they're more interested in showing off.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>I don’t think I’ve ever been more incensed than when I learned Harley Davidsons are quiet out of the factory and people make them loud. And while I can get a ticket for something trivial, I’ve never heard of someone getting a ticket for riding a motorcycle or car that’s obnoxiously loud and can be heard a mile away They're not exactly quiet from the factory but people make them loud because thanks to the Doppler effect you need to be really loud for someone in a vehicle beside you to hear you (and they're unlikely to consciously see you if they want to move over because their brain isn't used to checking for objects that are motorcycle sized).
hndamien 8y ago
Or light pollution.

reaperducer 8y ago

My point, I guess, cities, townships, what have you, don’t care about noise. Cities, townships, what have you, will care about whatever their active constituents tell them to. It took a few years, but a neighborhood organization managed to get a crackdown on motorcycle noise in Chicago. I don't know if it worked because I moved away before it went into effect. But there was a ton of press coverage for a very long time, so there's no way the offending riders could know that people don't like them. Loud Motorcycles In Alderman's Crosshairs As LSD Noise Monitoring Starts: https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170824/lincoln-park/loud-motorcycles-aldermans-crosshairs-as-lsd-noise-monitoring-starts/ https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170824/lincoln-park/loud-m...

mbrumlow 8y ago
> My point, I guess, cities, townships, what have you, don’t care about noise. I think the poster was referring to active constituents. But I think you are wrong. I don't know of anybody who wants a loud car or bike trekking by their house. But yet it still happens over and over. It is unclear if enough "active constituents" are not complaining or they are ignored.
- cm2187 8y ago
  I don't but I know some people are delighted at the sound of some sport cars.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    I don't but I know some people are delighted at the sound of some sport cars. I don't disagree. But in context. On track day at the local race track? Sure. At a professional sporting event? Great. Going down a residential street when people are trying to sleep? No way.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  I live on a hill with a busy intersection at the bottom. I get to listen to trucks with jake brakes going down the hill and people accelerating out of the intersection. I don't exactly live somewhere high class so vehicles with rusted out exhausts and Civics with fart cans abound. It doesn't bother me one bit. You get used to it. It's people in gated communities and quiet suburban neighborhoods where there is rarely much noise who complain about noise because the baseline amount of noise they experience is so low that every single loud noise is highly noticeable.
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    Unsure why you're being downvoted, but in my experience, this is absolutely correct. When I lived on a busy intersection, the noise level was always there, it just became background. When I lived near a flightpath, the sound of airlines was regularly there, and it also just became background. I now live in a very quiet area, and every passing motorbike is a disturbance. Then again, the other thing that's changed is my age and expectations of life. Whether or not that's related or not, I dunno.
    - SilasX 8y ago
      I've had the opposite experience. I lived in downtown SF. The noise of a loud motorcycle going by is substantively different from the ordinary background noise of city life. Unlike every other noise, you can't e.g. talk while it's going by. There is very good reason to treat it differently from the usual honks and airbrakes.

tylerjwilk00 8y ago

I am not advocating loud motorcycles but as a rider I know from experience that cars on the roads will pay more attention and give more caution to a louder motorcycle. A simple fender bender on a motorcycle can be fatal which is the reasoning behind the phrase "Loud pipes save lives." Are some people doing it to be obnoxious? Probably. Are some people doing it out of the desire for increased safety? Yes.

brokenmachine 8y ago
My car would be safer with a super-loud siren that blares continuously to announce my prescence, but I don't do it because I live in a society and I wouldn't like it if everyone else did that.
- erbium 8y ago
  You won't die in a fender-bender in a car.
breatheoften 8y ago
Harley’s are terrible motorcycles with severe safety compromising design flaws made for stylistic reasons — the argument that they should be made loud for real safety reasons employs deeply flawed reasoning. I rode a (non Harley, well engineered) motorcycle for years and always thought the claim that you needed to make your bike loud to enhance perception was bollocks. The right answer is to always ride with the awareness that people can’t/don’t see you and plan lane position accordingly.
- slap 8y ago
  > severe safety compromising design flaws made for stylistic reason Could you explain what exactly ?
  - breatheoften 8y ago
    People buy Harley’s for the twin cam engine which vibrates a lot and “if you have to ask why this is good then you wouldn’t understand”. The marketing for Harley’s is very much about buying into “worse is better” for “cool” factor — and for social signaling that you might know how to turn your own wrenches. The joke is that Harley owners spend more time in the garage with their bikes than riding them. They require a lot of maintenance to keep running. From a risk perspective, the onerously frequent maintenance requirements increase the chance of a mechanic introduced error having negative safety outcomes. The fact that every owner basically “has” to work on the bikes rather extensively means that they are more likely in general to be worked on by not so qualified mechanics. The extensive customization culture surrounding the bikes also comes with a lot of really easy ways for safety compromising designs to be introduced via ill thought out customization. These may seem like small factors but all of them represent much more real risks than the imagined safety benefit that might come by making your bike excessively loud. Someone telling you to ride a Harley and also telling you to make it loud for safety is not giving good safety advice — to maximize safe riding you should never try to lower the responsibility of the rider to be aware of other drivers not seeing them - you can’t make yourself more visible by being loud and shouldn’t encourage someone to think this will work and thereby encourage them to not proactively defend themselves from a driver who might not see them. There are other safety relevant issues with the bike design — notoriously bad brakes and gearboxes, poor suspension, heavy with a low center of gravity that makes turning a relatively higher effort activity for shorter riders and generally makes recovery from problem scenarios more difficult, the “Harley wobble” (yes wobble can happen with other bikes but it tends to be more severe with Harley’s) ... It’s probably also worth pointing out that there have been something like 4 large recalls in the last 5 years for clutch problems that can lead to sudden brake failure. Also, the twin cam engine design is inherently not long lasting with many failure modes which means breakdowns are common (engine failure/fluid leaks are not generally conducive to safety).

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

abakker 8y ago

FWIW, California changed the minimum ticket for noise violations on vehicles to $1000 this year. They are apparently cracking down on it, as they have abolished the “fix it ticket” that used to allow the vehicle to be repaired and then the ticket is commuted. Now, the officer must fine you.

bigmattystyles 8y ago
This is fantastic news!
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Buttons840 8y ago
I once had the exhaust pipe before my catalytic converter on my car fall out due to a bump and some rust that had been building up. My car suddenly became very very loud, louder than I had ever realized it could be. I was quite embarrassed while driving the car home, and soon got it fixed. It wasn't especially expensive to fix. If that happened in California I might get a $1000 ticket? Or is the large ticket only for intentionally loud and illegal exhausts.
- morganvachon 8y ago
  I think in your specific case it would be up to the officer's discretion if you were pulled over for it. About 20 years ago I worked the night shift at a warehouse and my car's passenger side headlight went out on my way to work. I had time to stop at a parts dealer before they closed and picked up a new headlight, but I didn't have time to install it so I chucked it in the back seat and drove on to my job. I was pulled over right before pulling into work, and the trooper was reading me the riot act over the light. When I could get a word in I explained to him that it went out on me while driving, and I stopped to get one and planned to install it on my lunch break. I pointed to it in the back seat and showed him my receipt. He seemed pissed that his ranting was not necessary, but he didn't write me a ticket and instructed me to definitely install it that night because he'd be waiting for me on my trip home. Perhaps I was lucky to get a cop who wasn't so much of an asshole that he'd write me a ticket despite seeing my best intentions to deal with a situation that could happen to anyone. Then again, I could have been pulled over by a guy who would have started off nice and thanked me for being conscientious enough to stop for the part that night.

black-tea 8y ago

There is an electric BMW that has a loudspeaker in a fake exhaust pipe to make it sound like a petrol engine to people outside of the car. I think the negative effects of noise pollution are underestimated. It's never properly taken into account when people plan things. Part of it is many people don't understand just how soul destroying it can be (yet).

jsty 8y ago
> has a loudspeaker in a fake exhaust pipe to make it sound like a petrol engine This is however exceptionally helpful for blind people navigating near a road. I haven't seen the BMW in question so it might be unnecessarily loud, but electric cars are often so quiet you could barely hear one coming.
- cm2187 8y ago
  But should blind people rely on sound to cross in the first place? Many european cities are pushing for more cycling. Bicycles are pretty much totally silent and can go as fast as a car typically goes in a busy city.
  - jsty 8y ago
    I don't think it would ever be the chosen option and guide dogs, human assistance, etc. would all be preferable. But sometimes those just won't be available. One of the more dangerous aspects is in areas where cars are reversing / manoeuvring at low speeds - e.g. car parks. I'm fully sighted and still occasionally have a near miss with an electric / hybrid that I haven't noticed reversing! Bicycles do present some measure of danger, albeit reduced thanks to the lower momentum & crushing power. Some material from the RNIB, a UK charity: https://www.rnib.org.uk/rnibconnect/silent-deadly-electric-hybrid-vehicles-sight-loss https://www.rnib.org.uk/rnibconnect/silent-deadly-electric-h...
- black-tea 8y ago
  Are blind people stepping out in front of bicycles because they can't hear them?

Shivetya 8y ago

Oh please, I have owned two new ones, the last in 2017. They are not exactly "quiet" as new but not nearly as loud as those who straight pipe. After market pipes certified for road use still must meet Federal law. Plus recently as for more current models the EPA slapped HD with fines and future penalties over the modification of the engine and exhaust which really has cut down on the noise because HD will void your warranty with the EPA blessing if you use unapproved modifications which includes exhaust. Plus Harley isn't unique in attracting drivers/riders who make their exhaust system obnoxiously loud and yes they annoy many of their fellow HD riders too - they get to ride in the back of the pack. Plus if you are in California look up AB1824 which changed the loud exhaust regulations to assess a fine in every case. Used to be if you got pulled you could simply produce a receipt stating you fixed the loud exhaust and pay no fine but people were skirting that with obvious success. So yes, governments do care. Some HOA and Condo association ban all motorcycles because of noise. Now with regards to drones, noisy little suckers. The other issue is a private citizen is heavily restricted where they can even fly them. State parks are off limits in most states, any place where people gather of course is out, you can even be blocked from flying them on your property by many HOA and Condo associations (mentioned them before for similar reasons). Locally to me, Cobb County Georgia has an association for model aircraft that may support drones. They have their own field put in with tax dollars but "maintained" by user fees. Don't even think of using it until you pony up to two different organizations and an initiation fee and such. Yet places which are set aside for the legal use of drones may end up being this way unless the industry adapts. My father's recent DJI purchase did not automatically include the propeller guards, seems there is good profit in selling replacement blades. It definitely is noisy and I would expect research into blade technology can remedy some of that, surely the military has already done so.

leetcrew 8y ago
> My father's recent DJI purchase did not automatically include the propeller guards, seems there is good profit in selling replacement blades. you don't necessarily want prop guards most of the time. they make the props less efficient, which decreases aerodynamic performance and battery life.
- 8y ago

bujak300 8y ago

Oh you can get a fine in Europe for a loud vehicle. It can even be seized by the cops.

morganvachon 8y ago

As far as laws dealing with vehicle noise pollution, it greatly depends on where you live. I'm in a relatively rural town that is considered part of the Metro Atlanta area, and we have a lot of strange laws as a result. For example, there is a local noise ordinance that allows police to ticket a driver for a noisy muffler on a car or truck any time of day or night, but motorcycles (which are often much louder around here) are exempt. The reason, of course, is that a few of the council members are also bikers, so they are putting their own interests above those of the community. There's been a proposal at town hall meetings to change the law to include any motorized vehicle, but it always gets tabled.

jfdi 8y ago

A reason motorcycles are loud (or made to be loud) is safety: when driving on highways or in busy areas, the idea is the noise makes the rider safer by offsetting their size disadvantage.

darkpuma 8y ago
I don't think the guys doing wheelies down the street in front of my house are particularly concerned about safety. I think they're more interested in showing off.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>I don’t think I’ve ever been more incensed than when I learned Harley Davidsons are quiet out of the factory and people make them loud. And while I can get a ticket for something trivial, I’ve never heard of someone getting a ticket for riding a motorcycle or car that’s obnoxiously loud and can be heard a mile away They're not exactly quiet from the factory but people make them loud because thanks to the Doppler effect you need to be really loud for someone in a vehicle beside you to hear you (and they're unlikely to consciously see you if they want to move over because their brain isn't used to checking for objects that are motorcycle sized).

hndamien 8y ago

Or light pollution.