4 ms·

I for one don't think this is a very good idea. Firstly, I'm reminded of Jeff Atwood's article in 2008 (http://bit.ly/d82uSD http://bit.ly/d82uSD) where he talk

I for one don't think this is a very good idea. Firstly, I'm reminded of Jeff Atwood's article in 2008 (http://bit.ly/d82uSD http://bit.ly/d82uSD) where he talks about discovering that the open source project he donated $5000 to simply had no way to use the money. More over, as a developer open source software has never sat well with me. I don't understand how it got so hip and cool. I don't understand why anyone would want to participate. I'm damned good at my job... but I don't do it for free for anyone... My time is too valuable and my friends and family deserve to have as much time with me as possible. I know I'm mostly alone in this around these parts... But maybe someone can explain why so many people give away their free time using their hard earned, and valuable, skills for free. Though I do appreciate all their hard work, and I use open source products, I just don't understand why they do it.

JabavuAdams 16y ago
> But maybe someone can explain why so many people give away their free time using their hard earned, and valuable, skills for free. The difference is that you think of programming as a job, whereas a lot of programmers think of it as a hobby that can also pay the bills. You might as well ask why do people build model railroads, or airplanes? A final thing: if you have to justify activities financially, it constrains the activities you'll be willing to undertake. There's a lot of fun stuff to do that is not financially defensible, at least initially. This is fundamentally a job vs. calling thing. From my perspective I didn't understand how people could go into CS in university never having programmed before. I'm sure some of them are better programmers (and certainly employees) than I am, but it was new to me.
- tseabrooks 16y ago
  Maybe that's the difference... I don't love writing software... I'm good at it... My employer is extremely happy with the job I do... I think it's part of my job to follow the industry... follow the most recent trends... But I don't love this. Whenever someone asks me if I like my job I tell them, "No, but I haven't thought of something else I'd rather do yet". I don't think your answer fully addresses the question. Surely you can do it as a hobby and find a way to turn your hobby coding into something that makes money. Hell, isn't that half the reason most of us are here (@HN) watching people turn side projects into businesses and thinking about how to do it ourselves? It seem's contrary to the aims of the community to say they participate in open source projects because it is their hobby. There has to be more to the motivation than that. Perhaps, It's a desire to have other folks that create software look at what you've done and see the good parts of it. Only a Software Engineer can see why this part here was tricky and clever and it's nice to have the kind of reinforcement. Often times a boss only cares about the result, they don't always revel in the tiny clever details that got there.
  - calloc 16y ago
    My love for programming is such that I enjoy doing it while at home, I enjoy working on it on the weekends, I think about what I want to do next all of the time. If someone asks me my answers would be the complete opposite of yours. I am really happy with my job, I work with great people on new software, and new challenges that challenge me to think in different terms, provide new thoughts to the table and find ways to solve new and interesting problems that didn't exist yesterday. That in and of itself is the reason I am a programmer. You are very different from me in that you are a 9 - 5 programmer whereas I am a 24/7 programmer. The difference is that I write a whole lot of code outside of company time that is my own, and there is nothing better in the world than to be able to release code out into the wild to have someone find it, and use it to further their project, to be the cornerstone on which they build the next big thing that I can't imagine yet. Get improvements back, advice, comments, bug reports, and new ideas on where to take this new free software. I've already paid the bills, I've saved some money, I'm developing my skill set, why not release some of my knowledge out into the world for future generations to build upon?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
stevejohnson 16y ago
I never liked that Atwood post because he cherry picked one open source product to raise a stink about when there are thousands of other individual projects that can use donations. Also, the Apache Foundation, the PSF, the FSF, and many more organizations have a history of taking and using donations to advance the development and use of many open source projects. As for your comments about not being motivated to work on FOSS or not understanding why it exists, I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion. I don't have the time or inclination to argue with you about why OSS exists and is important, but while it's here and actively helping me do my job, I don't understand an argument against supporting those projects with bug reports, patches, and yes, money.
- tseabrooks 16y ago
  Maybe I wasn't clear. I just have a hard time supporting something (financially) when I don't really understand the motivations of the people behind it. I'm all for bug reports and the like.
  - stevejohnson 16y ago
    Why do you think you need to understand their motivations? It's a simple proposition: you give them money, and they make the software better because they are able to buy servers, take time off work, etc.
JabavuAdams 16y ago
Just to expand on the financial motive in my other reply: If you're doing something for-profit, you're answerable to investors, clients, and/or customers. If you're doing something for yourself (scratching your own itch), you're only answerable to yourself. That satisfies the artist mentality.
rue 16y ago
Some of us just like programming enough to do it on our spare time. Me, I am not at all certain the Web would have yet progressed beyond a 1998ish level without open source software and, perhaps more importantly, open standards. It is all but certain that you have used FOSS with some frequency. If you have no innate desire to work on code on your own, perhaps you could view it as a debt to repay.
- Lukeas14 16y ago
  Agreed. As programmers we do not work in a vacuum. Our entire industry is built on abstractions. So unless you're programming in ASM you are definitely taking advantage of the work that others before you have done for free or that their company has released for free.
timtadh 16y ago
I think the OP hit in on the head when he used the word Tithe, a word loaded with Christian connotations. How can we understand the Free Software Movement from a religious perspective? Some Data to Analyze : GNU Manifesto (some selected quotes) """ consider that the Golden Rule requires that if I like a program I must share it with other people who like it. Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them, making each user agree not to share with others. I refuse to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a software license agreement. ... So that I can continue to use computers without dishonor, I have decided to put together a sufficient body of free software so that I will be able to get along without any software that is not free. """ Here RMS explicitly states that using and making software exists in some sort of moral universe where actions have moral implications. A central tenet to RMS's morality is evidently the Golden Rule which he defines as: "I like a program I must share it with other people who like it." By sharing RMS means of course sharing the code and all the rights to the code. If software is made, used or distributed in violation of this moral principle it dishonors the program and the user; cursing the software. Thus, according to the GNU Manifesto, Free Software exists to make the fulfillment of our moral obligations possible. At the beginning of the Manifesto RMS says the movement needs money. The OP is advocating for providing such money on a monthly basis as a way to fulfill our obligation to ensure software can be used morally.
epi0Bauqu 16y ago
I think your objection is an (unintentional) red herring. Motivations are irrelevant from my perspective. My company (and other projects) are literally built on FOSS, so it makes sense (both reciprocally and selfishly) to try to improve it.
tlrobinson 16y ago
I see the code itself as something that can be appreciated, modified, reused, etc, not just a means to an end. I get gratification from seeing people use my code in a huge variety of projects, not just the one I'm working on at work. I enjoy seeing my projects grow beyond what they would have if they were trapped within a single company. If you're young or otherwise unknown your open source contributions can be a good way to market yourself.
fossee 16y ago
I've contributed to FOSS, and maintained a couple projects. I did it as a paid developer, working for an employer who realized it was cheaper to have me maintain and customize a FOSS product than it was to buy COTS or build from scratch. As far as I can tell, that's where the vast majority of code in the major projects comes from... some business that decides it makes to sense to throw a couple devs on a FOSS project. (or in the case of one of my former employers, about a hundred devs, across a wide range of FOSS products.)
kijinbear 16y ago
Money is actually a pretty good motivation for a lot of people who contribute to FOSS. It's not all about artist mentality. 75% of Linux is now written by paid developers. (http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm) Many other large FOSS projects also have a varying number of paid developers. Since a lot of companies who employ such developers (e.g. Red Hat, Novell, Google) rely on FOSS for their business-critical applications, they have a good motivation to make sure that the software they use perform well. Of course there's also hobbyists, volunteers, and people like RMS who believe they have a profound obligation to promote FOSS.
- angusgr 16y ago
  75% of Linux is now written by paid developers there's also hobbyists, volunteers, and people like RMS who believe they have a profound obligation to promote FOSS. I wouldn't consider that these two as completely distinct sets of people. Most of the paid Linux developers I know of (not necessarily a representative sample, but a fair few) started doing it as a hobby, and still do similar things as a hobby in their spare time. They're being paid to do it now because they were very good at it, and a particular company wants some say in exactly how it's done. A former co-worker of mine put it pretty well: "Quiet! As long as they don't know that we'd do this stuff anyhow for free, they'll keep paying us to do it!"
mustpax 16y ago
Please don't use URL shorteners on HN. The site handles full URLs just fine.
LiveTheDream 16y ago
Other responses have pointed out that many people just like programming, so they contribute without requiring payment. There's another reason that might appeal to your practical side which is basic economic utility - everyone gets to benefit from the specialized contributions of others.[1] If there were no open source projects and you wanted to write the latest trendy web app, you'd have to either write or buy all of it which is horribly time-consuming or expensive. With open source, you can run a free web server and a free database server on a free OS and just write the business logic and presentation. For the latter part, you can leverage free application and javascript frameworks to speed up development. At the end of the day no one cares if your application uses C/Postgres, Ruby/MongoDB, or C#.NET/MSSQL; they care if the application is useful. So all this contribution to open source helps everyone achieve the end goal (useful app) without getting lost along the way (implementing or buying the entire stack). So why do people give away their free time and hard-earned, valuable skills? Everyone benefits. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gains_from_trade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gains_from_trade

JabavuAdams 16y ago

> But maybe someone can explain why so many people give away their free time using their hard earned, and valuable, skills for free. The difference is that you think of programming as a job, whereas a lot of programmers think of it as a hobby that can also pay the bills. You might as well ask why do people build model railroads, or airplanes? A final thing: if you have to justify activities financially, it constrains the activities you'll be willing to undertake. There's a lot of fun stuff to do that is not financially defensible, at least initially. This is fundamentally a job vs. calling thing. From my perspective I didn't understand how people could go into CS in university never having programmed before. I'm sure some of them are better programmers (and certainly employees) than I am, but it was new to me.

tseabrooks 16y ago
Maybe that's the difference... I don't love writing software... I'm good at it... My employer is extremely happy with the job I do... I think it's part of my job to follow the industry... follow the most recent trends... But I don't love this. Whenever someone asks me if I like my job I tell them, "No, but I haven't thought of something else I'd rather do yet". I don't think your answer fully addresses the question. Surely you can do it as a hobby and find a way to turn your hobby coding into something that makes money. Hell, isn't that half the reason most of us are here (@HN) watching people turn side projects into businesses and thinking about how to do it ourselves? It seem's contrary to the aims of the community to say they participate in open source projects because it is their hobby. There has to be more to the motivation than that. Perhaps, It's a desire to have other folks that create software look at what you've done and see the good parts of it. Only a Software Engineer can see why this part here was tricky and clever and it's nice to have the kind of reinforcement. Often times a boss only cares about the result, they don't always revel in the tiny clever details that got there.
- calloc 16y ago
  My love for programming is such that I enjoy doing it while at home, I enjoy working on it on the weekends, I think about what I want to do next all of the time. If someone asks me my answers would be the complete opposite of yours. I am really happy with my job, I work with great people on new software, and new challenges that challenge me to think in different terms, provide new thoughts to the table and find ways to solve new and interesting problems that didn't exist yesterday. That in and of itself is the reason I am a programmer. You are very different from me in that you are a 9 - 5 programmer whereas I am a 24/7 programmer. The difference is that I write a whole lot of code outside of company time that is my own, and there is nothing better in the world than to be able to release code out into the wild to have someone find it, and use it to further their project, to be the cornerstone on which they build the next big thing that I can't imagine yet. Get improvements back, advice, comments, bug reports, and new ideas on where to take this new free software. I've already paid the bills, I've saved some money, I'm developing my skill set, why not release some of my knowledge out into the world for future generations to build upon?

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

stevejohnson 16y ago

I never liked that Atwood post because he cherry picked one open source product to raise a stink about when there are thousands of other individual projects that can use donations. Also, the Apache Foundation, the PSF, the FSF, and many more organizations have a history of taking and using donations to advance the development and use of many open source projects. As for your comments about not being motivated to work on FOSS or not understanding why it exists, I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion. I don't have the time or inclination to argue with you about why OSS exists and is important, but while it's here and actively helping me do my job, I don't understand an argument against supporting those projects with bug reports, patches, and yes, money.

tseabrooks 16y ago
Maybe I wasn't clear. I just have a hard time supporting something (financially) when I don't really understand the motivations of the people behind it. I'm all for bug reports and the like.
- stevejohnson 16y ago
  Why do you think you need to understand their motivations? It's a simple proposition: you give them money, and they make the software better because they are able to buy servers, take time off work, etc.

JabavuAdams 16y ago

Just to expand on the financial motive in my other reply: If you're doing something for-profit, you're answerable to investors, clients, and/or customers. If you're doing something for yourself (scratching your own itch), you're only answerable to yourself. That satisfies the artist mentality.

rue 16y ago

Some of us just like programming enough to do it on our spare time. Me, I am not at all certain the Web would have yet progressed beyond a 1998ish level without open source software and, perhaps more importantly, open standards. It is all but certain that you have used FOSS with some frequency. If you have no innate desire to work on code on your own, perhaps you could view it as a debt to repay.

Lukeas14 16y ago
Agreed. As programmers we do not work in a vacuum. Our entire industry is built on abstractions. So unless you're programming in ASM you are definitely taking advantage of the work that others before you have done for free or that their company has released for free.

timtadh 16y ago

I think the OP hit in on the head when he used the word Tithe, a word loaded with Christian connotations. How can we understand the Free Software Movement from a religious perspective? Some Data to Analyze : GNU Manifesto (some selected quotes) """ consider that the Golden Rule requires that if I like a program I must share it with other people who like it. Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them, making each user agree not to share with others. I refuse to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a software license agreement. ... So that I can continue to use computers without dishonor, I have decided to put together a sufficient body of free software so that I will be able to get along without any software that is not free. """ Here RMS explicitly states that using and making software exists in some sort of moral universe where actions have moral implications. A central tenet to RMS's morality is evidently the Golden Rule which he defines as: "I like a program I must share it with other people who like it." By sharing RMS means of course sharing the code and all the rights to the code. If software is made, used or distributed in violation of this moral principle it dishonors the program and the user; cursing the software. Thus, according to the GNU Manifesto, Free Software exists to make the fulfillment of our moral obligations possible. At the beginning of the Manifesto RMS says the movement needs money. The OP is advocating for providing such money on a monthly basis as a way to fulfill our obligation to ensure software can be used morally.

epi0Bauqu 16y ago

I think your objection is an (unintentional) red herring. Motivations are irrelevant from my perspective. My company (and other projects) are literally built on FOSS, so it makes sense (both reciprocally and selfishly) to try to improve it.

tlrobinson 16y ago

I see the code itself as something that can be appreciated, modified, reused, etc, not just a means to an end. I get gratification from seeing people use my code in a huge variety of projects, not just the one I'm working on at work. I enjoy seeing my projects grow beyond what they would have if they were trapped within a single company. If you're young or otherwise unknown your open source contributions can be a good way to market yourself.

fossee 16y ago

I've contributed to FOSS, and maintained a couple projects. I did it as a paid developer, working for an employer who realized it was cheaper to have me maintain and customize a FOSS product than it was to buy COTS or build from scratch. As far as I can tell, that's where the vast majority of code in the major projects comes from... some business that decides it makes to sense to throw a couple devs on a FOSS project. (or in the case of one of my former employers, about a hundred devs, across a wide range of FOSS products.)

kijinbear 16y ago

Money is actually a pretty good motivation for a lot of people who contribute to FOSS. It's not all about artist mentality. 75% of Linux is now written by paid developers. (http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm) Many other large FOSS projects also have a varying number of paid developers. Since a lot of companies who employ such developers (e.g. Red Hat, Novell, Google) rely on FOSS for their business-critical applications, they have a good motivation to make sure that the software they use perform well. Of course there's also hobbyists, volunteers, and people like RMS who believe they have a profound obligation to promote FOSS.

angusgr 16y ago
75% of Linux is now written by paid developers there's also hobbyists, volunteers, and people like RMS who believe they have a profound obligation to promote FOSS. I wouldn't consider that these two as completely distinct sets of people. Most of the paid Linux developers I know of (not necessarily a representative sample, but a fair few) started doing it as a hobby, and still do similar things as a hobby in their spare time. They're being paid to do it now because they were very good at it, and a particular company wants some say in exactly how it's done. A former co-worker of mine put it pretty well: "Quiet! As long as they don't know that we'd do this stuff anyhow for free, they'll keep paying us to do it!"

mustpax 16y ago

Please don't use URL shorteners on HN. The site handles full URLs just fine.

LiveTheDream 16y ago

Other responses have pointed out that many people just like programming, so they contribute without requiring payment. There's another reason that might appeal to your practical side which is basic economic utility - everyone gets to benefit from the specialized contributions of others.[1] If there were no open source projects and you wanted to write the latest trendy web app, you'd have to either write or buy all of it which is horribly time-consuming or expensive. With open source, you can run a free web server and a free database server on a free OS and just write the business logic and presentation. For the latter part, you can leverage free application and javascript frameworks to speed up development. At the end of the day no one cares if your application uses C/Postgres, Ruby/MongoDB, or C#.NET/MSSQL; they care if the application is useful. So all this contribution to open source helps everyone achieve the end goal (useful app) without getting lost along the way (implementing or buying the entire stack). So why do people give away their free time and hard-earned, valuable skills? Everyone benefits. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gains_from_trade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gains_from_trade