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I'm starting to think Microsoft's strategy with things like VS Code, Monaco editor, and Typescript is "blow the developer away with how amazingly productive the

I'm starting to think Microsoft's strategy with things like VS Code, Monaco editor, and Typescript is "blow the developer away with how amazingly productive they are so that they will want to use more of our products". Because it's just so high quality yet also gratis/libre (MIT license), that I can't see what else they could be trying to do.

evilduck 8y ago
It's probably multi-faceted. Part of me thinks it's just something they use internally extensively and that branching out to the public means they can easily hire talent to work on their own projects. It's also probably an effort to stay relevant and make amends with web developers, who have long held them in low regard. And yeah, Azure is a booming business for them. VSCode has a bunch of first-party extensions that reduce friction for working on their platform.
jcmoscon 8y ago
Yes, and I will start looking into azure because of this same amazing feeling I'm having with VS code and typescript.
- sephoric 8y ago
  If it's as cheap and powerful as AWS then I'm on board too. But I doubt it is, Amazon's got it down to an intricate science that seems like it can't be beat.
  - WorldMaker 8y ago
    Depending on specifics (obviously), Azure is quite competitive with Amazon on pricing, and extremely competitive on "power". Your mileage will of course vary, but the interesting thing about Azure versus AWS is (surprising to some) Azure tends to use more "open standards" versus AWS' proprietary solutions. (Two examples off the top of my head: Azure supports Docker and Kubernetes directly rather than the Elastic TLAs' own in house container models and container orchestrators. Azure's most used in-memory cache is Redis.)
- nwsm 8y ago
  Definitely look into it, but it isn't nearly as robust as AWS. Automation/DevOps and data streaming/processing are some lacking areas. Fine if you just need PaaS app + RDB though.
- h1d 8y ago
  The interface is astonishingly Windows'ish with millions of knobs to turn and not as stable as you want. (Resource usage metrics returned errors for a while on me.) You will need time to get used to it. I even use AWS for a Windows instance.
julienb_sea 8y ago
Honestly I also think its a recruiting tool for Microsoft. Developers watch the meaningful and useful open source contributions made by Microsoft, and some of the highbrow disinterest in Microsoft due to choices made in the past will fade.
Jach 8y ago
MS has long been about "Developers! Developers! Developers!" But these days they're about more than just Windows developers shipping native closed source applications.
- h1d 8y ago
  Yet Visual Studio (not the Code) is still a payware with multiple editions.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    You can build anything with the free community edition and they keep down-shifting previously enterprise features with every major version.
fooey 8y ago
Microsoft's tooling is fantastic Trying to work with other databases after using SQL Studio is incredibly frustrating
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
chubot 8y ago
This is not new -- Steve Ballmer understood this viscerally (ahem) over 10 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs Granted, they weren't releasing much open source then, but it was all free to use, and the quality was far above open source alternatives (e.g. think the Visual Studio debugger vs. GDB wrappers). I think they just naturally figured out that there's zero advantage to keeping developer tools closed source.
skohan 8y ago
Never forget "Embrace, extend, extinguish". Microsoft has a history of adopting open standards, adding value to them to gain market share, then leveraging that to destroy their competition. Microsoft might seem to be an "open source champion" now, but remember that it is a publicly traded corporation with a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits for its shareholders and a history of anti-competitive, anti-consumer practices. Right now they are being warm and fuzzy to regain the developer mind-share they have lost over the past couple decades to open-source software. If they get a large percentage of developers using their tools and services (looking at you GitHub) I would not trust that they will continue to be so warm and fuzzy.
- sime2009 8y ago
  I know how "Embrace, extend, extinguish" works when the product people are "locked" into is closed source and propriety. But explain to me how this works when the product is open source and can be forked by anyone?
  - skohan 8y ago
    They may not be able to do "Embrace, extend, extinguish" in the exact same way with their open-source efforts, but that doesn't mean they would not be able to apply leverage given sufficient market share. Imagine if VSCode becomes the defacto code editor. Then they add seamless integration with GitHub, including value-added features which are not available from other providers like gitlab. Developers accept it because everyone uses GitHub anyway. Then they add features to GitHub to integrate seamlessly with Azure, and bug tickets related to GitHub plugins for interop with AWS start to take longer and longer to be resolved. Then maybe one day they change the terms of service, and it's no longer allowed to develop GitHub plugins which compete with Azure. Then they release an update to VSCode which uses deep learning for code completion. On Windows it uses a new DX12-powered subsystem which makes it fast and responsive, while on Mac and Linux it falls back to a single-threaded solution which makes the whole application feel laggy. In a scenario like that, it would be in principal possible to fork VSCode and make a more platorm-agnostic version, but how realistic is it that an individual, or even a small team will be able to keep up with a large corporation which seeks to make such an effort less successful. Open source software is great, but if Microsoft owns the governance of those projects, and the up-streams and down-streams, they still have a lot of power over them.
alasdair_ 8y ago
>I can't see what else they could be trying to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_J%2B%2B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_J%2B%2B Microsoft does the same thing over and over - "embrace" a technology, "extend" it by adding some extra stuff to it that happens to work best on Windows then "extinguish" the tech once people are locked in. Also see: Internet Explorer or Kerberos or Office document interoperability or AIM (messenger) or half a dozen other things.

evilduck 8y ago

It's probably multi-faceted. Part of me thinks it's just something they use internally extensively and that branching out to the public means they can easily hire talent to work on their own projects. It's also probably an effort to stay relevant and make amends with web developers, who have long held them in low regard. And yeah, Azure is a booming business for them. VSCode has a bunch of first-party extensions that reduce friction for working on their platform.

jcmoscon 8y ago

Yes, and I will start looking into azure because of this same amazing feeling I'm having with VS code and typescript.

sephoric 8y ago
If it's as cheap and powerful as AWS then I'm on board too. But I doubt it is, Amazon's got it down to an intricate science that seems like it can't be beat.
- WorldMaker 8y ago
  Depending on specifics (obviously), Azure is quite competitive with Amazon on pricing, and extremely competitive on "power". Your mileage will of course vary, but the interesting thing about Azure versus AWS is (surprising to some) Azure tends to use more "open standards" versus AWS' proprietary solutions. (Two examples off the top of my head: Azure supports Docker and Kubernetes directly rather than the Elastic TLAs' own in house container models and container orchestrators. Azure's most used in-memory cache is Redis.)
nwsm 8y ago
Definitely look into it, but it isn't nearly as robust as AWS. Automation/DevOps and data streaming/processing are some lacking areas. Fine if you just need PaaS app + RDB though.
h1d 8y ago
The interface is astonishingly Windows'ish with millions of knobs to turn and not as stable as you want. (Resource usage metrics returned errors for a while on me.) You will need time to get used to it. I even use AWS for a Windows instance.

julienb_sea 8y ago

Honestly I also think its a recruiting tool for Microsoft. Developers watch the meaningful and useful open source contributions made by Microsoft, and some of the highbrow disinterest in Microsoft due to choices made in the past will fade.

Jach 8y ago

MS has long been about "Developers! Developers! Developers!" But these days they're about more than just Windows developers shipping native closed source applications.

h1d 8y ago
Yet Visual Studio (not the Code) is still a payware with multiple editions.
- manigandham 8y ago
  You can build anything with the free community edition and they keep down-shifting previously enterprise features with every major version.

fooey 8y ago

Microsoft's tooling is fantastic Trying to work with other databases after using SQL Studio is incredibly frustrating

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

chubot 8y ago

This is not new -- Steve Ballmer understood this viscerally (ahem) over 10 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs Granted, they weren't releasing much open source then, but it was all free to use, and the quality was far above open source alternatives (e.g. think the Visual Studio debugger vs. GDB wrappers). I think they just naturally figured out that there's zero advantage to keeping developer tools closed source.

skohan 8y ago

Never forget "Embrace, extend, extinguish". Microsoft has a history of adopting open standards, adding value to them to gain market share, then leveraging that to destroy their competition. Microsoft might seem to be an "open source champion" now, but remember that it is a publicly traded corporation with a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits for its shareholders and a history of anti-competitive, anti-consumer practices. Right now they are being warm and fuzzy to regain the developer mind-share they have lost over the past couple decades to open-source software. If they get a large percentage of developers using their tools and services (looking at you GitHub) I would not trust that they will continue to be so warm and fuzzy.

sime2009 8y ago
I know how "Embrace, extend, extinguish" works when the product people are "locked" into is closed source and propriety. But explain to me how this works when the product is open source and can be forked by anyone?
- skohan 8y ago
  They may not be able to do "Embrace, extend, extinguish" in the exact same way with their open-source efforts, but that doesn't mean they would not be able to apply leverage given sufficient market share. Imagine if VSCode becomes the defacto code editor. Then they add seamless integration with GitHub, including value-added features which are not available from other providers like gitlab. Developers accept it because everyone uses GitHub anyway. Then they add features to GitHub to integrate seamlessly with Azure, and bug tickets related to GitHub plugins for interop with AWS start to take longer and longer to be resolved. Then maybe one day they change the terms of service, and it's no longer allowed to develop GitHub plugins which compete with Azure. Then they release an update to VSCode which uses deep learning for code completion. On Windows it uses a new DX12-powered subsystem which makes it fast and responsive, while on Mac and Linux it falls back to a single-threaded solution which makes the whole application feel laggy. In a scenario like that, it would be in principal possible to fork VSCode and make a more platorm-agnostic version, but how realistic is it that an individual, or even a small team will be able to keep up with a large corporation which seeks to make such an effort less successful. Open source software is great, but if Microsoft owns the governance of those projects, and the up-streams and down-streams, they still have a lot of power over them.

alasdair_ 8y ago

>I can't see what else they could be trying to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_J%2B%2B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_J%2B%2B Microsoft does the same thing over and over - "embrace" a technology, "extend" it by adding some extra stuff to it that happens to work best on Windows then "extinguish" the tech once people are locked in. Also see: Internet Explorer or Kerberos or Office document interoperability or AIM (messenger) or half a dozen other things.