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Naval ships are typically built to a much higher standard then civilian ships. Thicker plating, more fire resistance, heavier bearings etc. This makes them cos

Naval ships are typically built to a much higher standard then civilian ships. Thicker plating, more fire resistance, heavier bearings etc. This makes them cost more. The navy has at times tried to relax these requirements, but so far it has not worked out. Designating a ship as civilian level hardness from the git-go may be a way around this. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUKN2017353120100121 https://www.reuters.com/article/idUKN2017353120100121

gaius 8y ago
This is why HMS Ocean had such a short service life, to “save money” she was built to commercial not military standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)
- mattmanser 8y ago
  Seems like you're being a bit disingenuous, or you need to explain a bit more. According to the very Wikipedia article you link to, firstly she's been sold to Brazil for £80 million and so is still in service, and she also cost 2/3rds what it would have cost to make it to military standards. That doesn't sound bad? (For context the article claims her cost is the equivalent of £288 million in 2016, so roughly sold for 30% of her original price). VSEL's bid was £139.5 million compared to Swan Hunter's £210.6 million... The Financial Times described the different philosophies adopted by the two bidders; while Swan Hunter viewed the ships as entirely military, "VSEL thought the design was basically a merchant ship with military hardware bolted on." VSEL's decision to sub-contract the build phase took advantage of lower overheads at a civilian yard as well as efficiency drives by its parent, Kværne I don't know anything about the expected service times, etc., so I'd be interested to hear if it's turned out as bad as you made it seem?
  - gaius 8y ago
    How the Brazilian government allocates it’s defence budget is it’s own concern of course but consider that a comparable-role ship HMS Hermes was laid down in 1944, sold to India in 1985 and served until 2017. Ocean will never manage that. HMS Ark Royal served for 30 years too. São Paulo, the ship Brazil is replacing, a former French vessel was intended to have a total service life of 80 years! —————————- Reply here as I am “posting too fast” apparently The idea that in 20 years, let alone 40 years time, we'll still rely on human piloted planes is pure stupidity. They said that 50 years ago when the first guided missiles were coming into service. They will probably still be saying it in 50 years! The truth is that military tech just doesn’t change that fast. The B52. The 1911 pistol - that’s the year. Warship hulls are supposed to last 50+ years and you occasionally upgrade the radar. That sort of thing.
    - mattmanser 8y ago
      Does that make sense in this day and age? Tech is advancing fast. The ship that replaced her cost £3.1 billion, over 10x the cost, even when you inflation adjust. Seems like Ocean was a bargain to me. Edit: The more I think of this, the more insane it is. The idea that in 20 years, let alone 40 years time, we'll still rely on human piloted planes is pure stupidity. What a colossal boondoggle we've bought, and not one, but two of them!
twic 8y ago
The Royal Navy did try using a freighter as a ferry aircraft carrier during the Falklands war: https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/04/the-atlantic-conveyor-falklands30/ https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/04/the-atlantic-conveyor... That didn't involve fitting it with any defences, so the Argentinian navy sank it. Some RN pilots were clearly keen on the idea though: https://www.forces.net/news/tri-service/day-royal-navy-pilot-landed-spanish-container-ship https://www.forces.net/news/tri-service/day-royal-navy-pilot...
stcredzero 8y ago
The navy has at times tried to relax these requirements, but so far it has not worked out. It has been speculated that relaxed requirements or poor implementation of modifications was responsible for the sinking of the Kursk. Relaxing ammo handling procedures to achieve higher rate of fire scores in exercises may have helped to sink the HMS Hood. There's an analogy in here somewhere concerning computer security.
fmajid 8y ago
During the Iran-Iraq war when both Iraqis and Iranis were firing missiles at traffic through the Persian gulf, tankers routinely survived the kind of missile strike that nearly sank the USS Stark. Double-hulled tankers are extremely resilient.

gaius 8y ago

This is why HMS Ocean had such a short service life, to “save money” she was built to commercial not military standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)

mattmanser 8y ago
Seems like you're being a bit disingenuous, or you need to explain a bit more. According to the very Wikipedia article you link to, firstly she's been sold to Brazil for £80 million and so is still in service, and she also cost 2/3rds what it would have cost to make it to military standards. That doesn't sound bad? (For context the article claims her cost is the equivalent of £288 million in 2016, so roughly sold for 30% of her original price). VSEL's bid was £139.5 million compared to Swan Hunter's £210.6 million... The Financial Times described the different philosophies adopted by the two bidders; while Swan Hunter viewed the ships as entirely military, "VSEL thought the design was basically a merchant ship with military hardware bolted on." VSEL's decision to sub-contract the build phase took advantage of lower overheads at a civilian yard as well as efficiency drives by its parent, Kværne I don't know anything about the expected service times, etc., so I'd be interested to hear if it's turned out as bad as you made it seem?
- gaius 8y ago
  How the Brazilian government allocates it’s defence budget is it’s own concern of course but consider that a comparable-role ship HMS Hermes was laid down in 1944, sold to India in 1985 and served until 2017. Ocean will never manage that. HMS Ark Royal served for 30 years too. São Paulo, the ship Brazil is replacing, a former French vessel was intended to have a total service life of 80 years! —————————- Reply here as I am “posting too fast” apparently The idea that in 20 years, let alone 40 years time, we'll still rely on human piloted planes is pure stupidity. They said that 50 years ago when the first guided missiles were coming into service. They will probably still be saying it in 50 years! The truth is that military tech just doesn’t change that fast. The B52. The 1911 pistol - that’s the year. Warship hulls are supposed to last 50+ years and you occasionally upgrade the radar. That sort of thing.
  - mattmanser 8y ago
    Does that make sense in this day and age? Tech is advancing fast. The ship that replaced her cost £3.1 billion, over 10x the cost, even when you inflation adjust. Seems like Ocean was a bargain to me. Edit: The more I think of this, the more insane it is. The idea that in 20 years, let alone 40 years time, we'll still rely on human piloted planes is pure stupidity. What a colossal boondoggle we've bought, and not one, but two of them!

twic 8y ago

The Royal Navy did try using a freighter as a ferry aircraft carrier during the Falklands war: https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/04/the-atlantic-conveyor-falklands30/ https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/04/the-atlantic-conveyor... That didn't involve fitting it with any defences, so the Argentinian navy sank it. Some RN pilots were clearly keen on the idea though: https://www.forces.net/news/tri-service/day-royal-navy-pilot-landed-spanish-container-ship https://www.forces.net/news/tri-service/day-royal-navy-pilot...

stcredzero 8y ago

The navy has at times tried to relax these requirements, but so far it has not worked out. It has been speculated that relaxed requirements or poor implementation of modifications was responsible for the sinking of the Kursk. Relaxing ammo handling procedures to achieve higher rate of fire scores in exercises may have helped to sink the HMS Hood. There's an analogy in here somewhere concerning computer security.

fmajid 8y ago

During the Iran-Iraq war when both Iraqis and Iranis were firing missiles at traffic through the Persian gulf, tankers routinely survived the kind of missile strike that nearly sank the USS Stark. Double-hulled tankers are extremely resilient.