5 ms·

I see arguments like this a fair bit, and I'd like to explain why I'm not at all convinced. Your position is entirely predicated on the assumption that we must

by cmsj 8y ago

I see arguments like this a fair bit, and I'd like to explain why I'm not at all convinced. Your position is entirely predicated on the assumption that we must protect Open Source companies above the freedom of users/developers, which does not fit my beliefs on what FOSS exists to do. If MongoDB Corp goes away because everyone is using the AWS version, I would be sad to see an Open Source company end, and would feel bad for the people who lost their jobs, but I wouldn't rewrite the licenses to be Open Source Except Big Bad Cloud. FOSS licenses exist to encode a somewhat overlapping set of moral philosophies, and if a particular company (or companies) aren't able to monetise around those philosophies, they have made a strategic mistake of some kind. The response to this should not be for the VCs behind these companies to dilute the essence of FOSS until it can be used to trap users/platforms. That would lead us to a world where we have replaced the monopolies of proprietary software with monopsonies for "open source" companies, and I have zero interest in that world.

talkingtab 8y ago
Good points, and I may not have said this well, (and here's the obligatory but ) but... - I am not proposing to "protect OSS companies over the freedom of ...". Rather I am attempting to explore a way to provide a boundary between the entire OSS community (users/developers, etc) and those companies that attempt to exploit that community. As others have pointed out, there are many companies that make a contribution to open source on a generous basis - Microsoft, even FaceBook by golly. - I don't think the distinction there is "Big Bad Cloud", it is between those who help build and maintain open source and those who exploit it. The goal to me is that the people who have created the incredible thing we call OSS should have a reasonable expectation of sharing in the benefits.
- cmsj 8y ago
  I would love it if more companies would get involved with FOSS communities, either by sponsoring work, or getting involved directly, but I would still argue that it's against the spirit of FOSS (and the letter of most licenses) to try and force them to. When we choose to put our software out in the world under permissive licenses, we can't really turn around and complain when people make use of it in ways that are beneficial to them. On that basis, I object to the use of the word "exploit" in its negative sense. Edit: I'd like to add one thought - there are different groups of people who could benefit by greater engagement from large corporate use of FOSS. Two that come to mind easily are the funded startups trying to find viable FOSS business models; I admire their optimism and their goals, and wish them luck. The second is individuals and small groups who tirelessly maintain incredibly important things that the rest of us take for granted and have to fight tooth and nail for every grant, every hour of their own spare time and every hour of their employer's time, to keep those things going for us. If I have to choose a group to care about supporting, it's definitely going to be the latter, for whom I have immense respect, undying gratitude, and sadly insignificant donations.
  - talkingtab 8y ago
    I agree your sentiment in general and especially with the last sentences ... It is one of the reasons I'm interested in trying to find some way(s) that we ensure they (the individuals and small groups) have some appropriate reward and that they are not exploited. I'm really not familiar with mongoDB and I don't use it, but I suspect that it started out as a person or small group that grew and grew and helped many people until ... But perhaps exploit is too strong a word? It certainly seems that at least Amazon is acting as a bad citizen in this case by taking more than they are giving back. And it is within the realm of possibility that they will damage this project - the EEE syndrome is one possibility. But yes to the respect, gratitude and sadly the insignificant donations as well.
    - mnutt 8y ago
      Not to detract at all from your point, but Mongo (10gen) was very, very well-funded out of the gate, and the original idea was a platform-as-a-service built on open source apps before they pivoted to the open source database idea.

by cmsj 8y ago

talkingtab 8y ago

Good points, and I may not have said this well, (and here's the obligatory but ) but... - I am not proposing to "protect OSS companies over the freedom of ...". Rather I am attempting to explore a way to provide a boundary between the entire OSS community (users/developers, etc) and those companies that attempt to exploit that community. As others have pointed out, there are many companies that make a contribution to open source on a generous basis - Microsoft, even FaceBook by golly. - I don't think the distinction there is "Big Bad Cloud", it is between those who help build and maintain open source and those who exploit it. The goal to me is that the people who have created the incredible thing we call OSS should have a reasonable expectation of sharing in the benefits.

cmsj 8y ago
I would love it if more companies would get involved with FOSS communities, either by sponsoring work, or getting involved directly, but I would still argue that it's against the spirit of FOSS (and the letter of most licenses) to try and force them to. When we choose to put our software out in the world under permissive licenses, we can't really turn around and complain when people make use of it in ways that are beneficial to them. On that basis, I object to the use of the word "exploit" in its negative sense. Edit: I'd like to add one thought - there are different groups of people who could benefit by greater engagement from large corporate use of FOSS. Two that come to mind easily are the funded startups trying to find viable FOSS business models; I admire their optimism and their goals, and wish them luck. The second is individuals and small groups who tirelessly maintain incredibly important things that the rest of us take for granted and have to fight tooth and nail for every grant, every hour of their own spare time and every hour of their employer's time, to keep those things going for us. If I have to choose a group to care about supporting, it's definitely going to be the latter, for whom I have immense respect, undying gratitude, and sadly insignificant donations.
- talkingtab 8y ago
  I agree your sentiment in general and especially with the last sentences ... It is one of the reasons I'm interested in trying to find some way(s) that we ensure they (the individuals and small groups) have some appropriate reward and that they are not exploited. I'm really not familiar with mongoDB and I don't use it, but I suspect that it started out as a person or small group that grew and grew and helped many people until ... But perhaps exploit is too strong a word? It certainly seems that at least Amazon is acting as a bad citizen in this case by taking more than they are giving back. And it is within the realm of possibility that they will damage this project - the EEE syndrome is one possibility. But yes to the respect, gratitude and sadly the insignificant donations as well.
  - mnutt 8y ago
    Not to detract at all from your point, but Mongo (10gen) was very, very well-funded out of the gate, and the original idea was a platform-as-a-service built on open source apps before they pivoted to the open source database idea.