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This should be a solemn reminder about proprietary (especially binary) file formats. They serve a purpose but are an awful way to archive things of value. I tr

by err4nt 8y ago

This should be a solemn reminder about proprietary (especially binary) file formats. They serve a purpose but are an awful way to archive things of value. I truly hope that we have learned our lesson from Flash and choose formats like SVG (human readable and an open standard) from now on for things like animations and games.

notatcomputer68 8y ago
It's a reminder that browsers are such huge beasts that no one can viable fork them when they feel the browsers are regressing.
- superkuh 8y ago
  Then use a succession of non-viable forks that are re-based periodically from the main but with most of the crap choices removed.
rectang 8y ago
This. Works in proprietary formats will be lost to time after supporting vendors lose in the marketplace. At best, there will be crippled, lossy exports -- lossy because vendors chasing lock-in and network effects don't want to make it easy for customers to leave. I've cited the demise of Opcode and Studio Vision in the past when making this argument, but that's niche. The Death of Flash brings down the point with greater weight.
Bahamut 8y ago
There was a time when the web was not able to handle SVG and Flash was the only option for rich interactive websites.
blablabla123 8y ago
Even if you use open formats, if it's a web app it's not unlikely that it has a server side dependency. For single user flash apps it's uncommon not to be self-contained. So actually it's a requirement as well that the source code and the assets are open.
- miedpo 8y ago
  I used to do some Flash Game Developmemt. My gut tells me that most games had game assets that are self contained. It's a lot easier to author an SWF that way (from my own experience).
shittyadmin 8y ago
> I truly hope that we have learned our lesson from Flash and choose formats like SVG (human readable and an open standard) from now on for things like animations and games. At least with a flash game, you can often just download the .swf file and run it however you like. With HTML-based stuff, you're often reliant on a server being up. Authoring tools are also just not what they were with flash - the sheer number of quality vector-based games and animations has dropped like a rock. I'm not sure if this is something Adobe will resolve eventually, but at the moment it's just kinda sad.
- tiuPapa 8y ago
  Not true. Browsers work with file addresses on your system. You can download an HTML file and all its JS and CSS and if navigate to the path of the HTML on the disk, the website would just behave as if it were served by a static server.
  - chrismeller 8y ago
    While true for simple things, this is one of those things that’s highly variable depending upon how you built your app. If all your JS is included via script tags and all your image assets are referenced directly, sure, probably. When anything is dynamically generated things get iffy, though. It’s one of the big problems both Google and services like the Wayback Machine and Pinboard have had with searching and preserving content. Of course gaming as a whole has also evolved, so it’s less likely you’d ever get a purely single player game in the first place, and who knows if the game will even load in 10 years if it can’t connect to the server to see if you’re registered or not.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > Browsers work with file addresses on your system. Not for AJAX requests they don't!
  - madez 8y ago
    If that were the case, 'The Web' wouldn't be pushed like it is right now. 'The Web' is a way to take control from users and put it into the hand of the ones that control the servers. People work on fully fledged binary programs compiled to 'The Web' that your computer just executes while the other half happens on the server. That's as proprietary and inaccessible as it gets.
heavenlyblue 8y ago
It's a great reminder that Flash at the time was way beyond any other technology for the designers and animators who were the primary users of it. And the fact is that most of the open technologies take years in order to become as full-featured as the closed-source ones. By that time the trend that artists were following is out of fashion. By the way - if we think about it. Are there yet any actual tools that allow you to program SVGs as easily as you could once program Flash? I understand it's technically possible to compile from Flash sources to SVG, but are there actual tools yet?
- nacs 8y ago
  > any actual tools that allow you to program SVGs There's Synfig Studio that's open source and supports SVG export: https://www.synfig.org/ https://www.synfig.org/

by err4nt 8y ago

notatcomputer68 8y ago

It's a reminder that browsers are such huge beasts that no one can viable fork them when they feel the browsers are regressing.

superkuh 8y ago
Then use a succession of non-viable forks that are re-based periodically from the main but with most of the crap choices removed.

rectang 8y ago

This. Works in proprietary formats will be lost to time after supporting vendors lose in the marketplace. At best, there will be crippled, lossy exports -- lossy because vendors chasing lock-in and network effects don't want to make it easy for customers to leave. I've cited the demise of Opcode and Studio Vision in the past when making this argument, but that's niche. The Death of Flash brings down the point with greater weight.

Bahamut 8y ago

There was a time when the web was not able to handle SVG and Flash was the only option for rich interactive websites.

blablabla123 8y ago

Even if you use open formats, if it's a web app it's not unlikely that it has a server side dependency. For single user flash apps it's uncommon not to be self-contained. So actually it's a requirement as well that the source code and the assets are open.

miedpo 8y ago
I used to do some Flash Game Developmemt. My gut tells me that most games had game assets that are self contained. It's a lot easier to author an SWF that way (from my own experience).

shittyadmin 8y ago

> I truly hope that we have learned our lesson from Flash and choose formats like SVG (human readable and an open standard) from now on for things like animations and games. At least with a flash game, you can often just download the .swf file and run it however you like. With HTML-based stuff, you're often reliant on a server being up. Authoring tools are also just not what they were with flash - the sheer number of quality vector-based games and animations has dropped like a rock. I'm not sure if this is something Adobe will resolve eventually, but at the moment it's just kinda sad.

tiuPapa 8y ago
Not true. Browsers work with file addresses on your system. You can download an HTML file and all its JS and CSS and if navigate to the path of the HTML on the disk, the website would just behave as if it were served by a static server.
- chrismeller 8y ago
  While true for simple things, this is one of those things that’s highly variable depending upon how you built your app. If all your JS is included via script tags and all your image assets are referenced directly, sure, probably. When anything is dynamically generated things get iffy, though. It’s one of the big problems both Google and services like the Wayback Machine and Pinboard have had with searching and preserving content. Of course gaming as a whole has also evolved, so it’s less likely you’d ever get a purely single player game in the first place, and who knows if the game will even load in 10 years if it can’t connect to the server to see if you’re registered or not.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > Browsers work with file addresses on your system. Not for AJAX requests they don't!
- madez 8y ago
  If that were the case, 'The Web' wouldn't be pushed like it is right now. 'The Web' is a way to take control from users and put it into the hand of the ones that control the servers. People work on fully fledged binary programs compiled to 'The Web' that your computer just executes while the other half happens on the server. That's as proprietary and inaccessible as it gets.

heavenlyblue 8y ago

It's a great reminder that Flash at the time was way beyond any other technology for the designers and animators who were the primary users of it. And the fact is that most of the open technologies take years in order to become as full-featured as the closed-source ones. By that time the trend that artists were following is out of fashion. By the way - if we think about it. Are there yet any actual tools that allow you to program SVGs as easily as you could once program Flash? I understand it's technically possible to compile from Flash sources to SVG, but are there actual tools yet?

nacs 8y ago
> any actual tools that allow you to program SVGs There's Synfig Studio that's open source and supports SVG export: https://www.synfig.org/ https://www.synfig.org/