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Software engineering is technical, sure, but it's not that hard It actually is, have you ever notices the absolute void of developers over the age of 40? Peopl

by kls 16y ago

Software engineering is technical, sure, but it's not that hard It actually is, have you ever notices the absolute void of developers over the age of 40? People yell age discrimination but it is not true, it is the constant churn in ones life. From constantly reeducating yourself to stay relevant to the next emergency that requires 16 hrs 7 days a week for 2 months. It requires a passion for technology just to fulfill the reeducation requirement not to mention the hours. It burns developers out. The worst part is those on the outside don't get it, they think we pay them all this money and they still whine complain and won't take our jobs. So we have a profession with a high reeducation to relevance cycle and extreme requirements of time. Those two alone knock out a good deal of the population from even entering the profession. Then you have to deal with the burn out once you are in the grinder which always take a few of the good ones every year. So if you couple the education needs, burnout and with the fact that it is really hard to be a good developer you find that even the good one are out of the industry by 40. Usually through earning enough money to "drop out" start a worm farm in Texas. Or they hitched their star to the right wagon and have become very successful. I know because I have seen it, as a 36 year old who has suffered two burnouts, I have seen every one of my contemporaries fall. I remain because I set my terms, I made a agreement to myself that I would get out of the corporate grind and work for myself. I found a niche that was under-served (web accessibility, HCI for JS based web apps). So in a sense I am off the market, I don't think that I would go back to a corp gig for anything below 2x what the market is paying. But lets not fool ourselves as a freelancer, I am still for hire it just allows me to set some terms on how and when I work. It seems for me at least that this was enough to stave off a third bout of burn out. Being able to work from home and set my own hours has done a lot for my ability to refresh, recharge and reeducate.

Retric 16y ago
The real issues is the total number of Software dev's has increased dramatically over time so if you look for someone with 25 years of experience you need to realize 25 years ago the industry was smaller. Also while there are plenty of older developers the good ones are expensive because they know they are really worth every penny. PS: It's a true eye opener to see someone making 500$ an hour working a 40 hour week and know they could raise their rates and keep their job and they also get more done than the average small team.
- kls 16y ago
  It's a true eye opener to see someone making 500$ an hour working a 40 hour week and know they could raise their rates Right some how we make the moral argument that one person should not be making that much. But when you realize a good developer can do the work of a team. Because the how you do it, is more important than how much you do of it. Couple that with the fact that a developer can automate 100-1000 peoples jobs and the true value of their labor starts to take form.
  - tarmstrong 16y ago
    Who makes the moral argument that one person should not be making that much?
    - epochwolf 16y ago
      Karl Marx?
    - kls 16y ago
      A lot of people do. I can't tell you how many potential clients offices I have sat in and been lectures that I am not worth that much, I have a lot of gaul to charge the rates I do and that no one should make that much. It seems the moral argument only comes when you have to pay the rate not when they are out in the market making money hand over fist from the fruits of that labor, that I don't get a recurring cut of. And that is how I explain it to them, their potential upside to my labor is virtually limitless. Mine is fixed, I charge accordingly, if you would like to talk about a partial equity swap for a reduced labor price we can. This usually gets them back on topic pretty quick. They know their upside and are just trying to further maximize it. It is my job to maximize mine while providing quality service. I do that at a particular rate which is not exorbitant by industry standards. The only negotiations I do on it are reductions for equity. There was a good article from one of the early Apple guys who wrote the switcher. Apparently both Jobs and Gates where after it and him and both as soon as he entered the room started out with a critique as to why it was not worth that much, how he only put 100 or so hours in to it because he was a "good" developer. It is pretty typical of what you see out there. I will try to dig it up, it has been posted on HN a few times.
krschultz 16y ago
I worked with a guy who was over 65 and still working at a tech startup, and he was the best guy we had. Unfortunately passed away about a year ago but they do exist, there are just a lot fewer of them.
- kls 16y ago
  Yes, they do exist and when they have that kind of passion for building things they usually are great developers. I know that my 36 year old self is a much better developer that my 26 year old self. The lens of experience allows you to see things very differently. The business knowledge you amass in the various field is extraordinary. It it one of the few industry where you field of primary business while change several times in your carrer. That breadth really allows you to see thing differently than someone who stays in Real Estate or Manufacturing their entire carrer. As you get older it seems that, that information become more and more interesting to you. You start to connect independent pieces of puzzels people did not even know existed and come up with novel views on how the world works. It really is a shame that people don't survive but the hyper boom bust nature of software dev is just too much on a good deal of people who just want to make a living.

by kls 16y ago

Retric 16y ago

The real issues is the total number of Software dev's has increased dramatically over time so if you look for someone with 25 years of experience you need to realize 25 years ago the industry was smaller. Also while there are plenty of older developers the good ones are expensive because they know they are really worth every penny. PS: It's a true eye opener to see someone making 500$ an hour working a 40 hour week and know they could raise their rates and keep their job and they also get more done than the average small team.

kls 16y ago
It's a true eye opener to see someone making 500$ an hour working a 40 hour week and know they could raise their rates Right some how we make the moral argument that one person should not be making that much. But when you realize a good developer can do the work of a team. Because the how you do it, is more important than how much you do of it. Couple that with the fact that a developer can automate 100-1000 peoples jobs and the true value of their labor starts to take form.
- tarmstrong 16y ago
  Who makes the moral argument that one person should not be making that much?
  - epochwolf 16y ago
    Karl Marx?
  - kls 16y ago
    A lot of people do. I can't tell you how many potential clients offices I have sat in and been lectures that I am not worth that much, I have a lot of gaul to charge the rates I do and that no one should make that much. It seems the moral argument only comes when you have to pay the rate not when they are out in the market making money hand over fist from the fruits of that labor, that I don't get a recurring cut of. And that is how I explain it to them, their potential upside to my labor is virtually limitless. Mine is fixed, I charge accordingly, if you would like to talk about a partial equity swap for a reduced labor price we can. This usually gets them back on topic pretty quick. They know their upside and are just trying to further maximize it. It is my job to maximize mine while providing quality service. I do that at a particular rate which is not exorbitant by industry standards. The only negotiations I do on it are reductions for equity. There was a good article from one of the early Apple guys who wrote the switcher. Apparently both Jobs and Gates where after it and him and both as soon as he entered the room started out with a critique as to why it was not worth that much, how he only put 100 or so hours in to it because he was a "good" developer. It is pretty typical of what you see out there. I will try to dig it up, it has been posted on HN a few times.

krschultz 16y ago

I worked with a guy who was over 65 and still working at a tech startup, and he was the best guy we had. Unfortunately passed away about a year ago but they do exist, there are just a lot fewer of them.

kls 16y ago
Yes, they do exist and when they have that kind of passion for building things they usually are great developers. I know that my 36 year old self is a much better developer that my 26 year old self. The lens of experience allows you to see things very differently. The business knowledge you amass in the various field is extraordinary. It it one of the few industry where you field of primary business while change several times in your carrer. That breadth really allows you to see thing differently than someone who stays in Real Estate or Manufacturing their entire carrer. As you get older it seems that, that information become more and more interesting to you. You start to connect independent pieces of puzzels people did not even know existed and come up with novel views on how the world works. It really is a shame that people don't survive but the hyper boom bust nature of software dev is just too much on a good deal of people who just want to make a living.