3 ms·

It's not a straw man, it's a practical question. If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when som

It's not a straw man, it's a practical question. If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when someone infringes upon that right, such as a physician who refuses to provide services requested by a patient.

mcv 8y ago
Physicians may very well refuse services requested by a patient if the physician doesn't think those services are good for the patient. Health care is not a self-serve buffet. This has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. And if a physician denies a patient necessary treatment, there are already ways to deal with that. Physicians are (usually?) subject to disciplinary committees that deal with malpractice and other bad behaviour by physicians. Furthermore, a physician who refuses to do their job can be fired just like anyone else who refuses their job. This also has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. So what exactly is your practical question is it's neither a straw man nor one of these two issues?
- assblaster 8y ago
  If a patient does not want to pay for a needed service, such as a knee replacement, but still expects a physician to provide that service with no payment, the patient will be able to file a complaint against that physician in order to take that physician's ability to make a livelihood? Furthermore, if that physician later tries to practice without a license, the government can step in and arrest that physician, using armed police, because that physician was breaking the law? Is your assumption that all physicians are either employees of the state or state-authorized hospitals? What about self-employed physicians and freestanding outpatient surgery centers?
  - mcv 8y ago
    I think you are a couple of steps behind in the discussion. When people say that health care is a basic human right, they don't mean that physicians don't deserve to get paid for their work, they mean that everybody should have affordable (possibly government provided) health insurance. That insurance pays the physician. In some cases, the government simply pays for all care whether or not the patient is a citizen. But yes, if an unlicensed physician tries to practice without a license, that's generally considered illegal in most countries, and for good reason. Charlatans pretending to be able to cure patients have cost lives. There's a good reason why physicians need to meet certain standards before they're allowed to call themselves physician. Physicians can absolutely be and often are self-employed, even in countries where health care is considered a right. They too need to meet those standards. No, they can't be fired, but they can lose their license if they violate those standards. I'm not sure to what extent they're free to refuse to accept patients, but if they do accept a patient, that does come with a certain responsibility towards that patient.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      How are the phrases "healthcare is a human right" and "everybody should have affordable health insurance" even remotely connected? Health insurance is supposed to pay for catastrophic losses, similar to auto and home insurance. Is health insurance a human right? What does "affordable" mean? What happens when hospitals and physicians reject your insurance? What co-pays and coinsurance are considered affordable? Does the right to health insurance extend to people who willingly destroy themselves for pleasure? Do they pay the same amount as people who take care of themselves? Can "healthcare is a human right" extend to Americans who travel to Europe for the purpose of obtaining free elective medical care at the expense of European taxpayers? Can your idea of "healthcare is a human right" extend to other aspects of our economy? Can it be declared that programming services are a human right? Food? What kind/how much/which stores/including restaurants? Housing? How many bedrooms, bathrooms, TVs? Telephone service? Why can some people claim a right over the production of fellow citizens' work, but others can't claim the same rights over other people's work (like programming)?
      - mcv 8y ago
        > How are the phrases "healthcare is a human right" and "everybody should have affordable health insurance" even remotely connected? The latter is to ensure the former. I suppose it would be better to have a system like the NHS, because it saves on paperwork and ensures everybody has access to health care with the fewest hurdles possible, but that's not the only way to do it. It can be done through a system of private health insurance as long as it's very well regulated. But however you do it, a system where people are denied health care or go bankrupt trying to pay for health care, is not good enough. Look, you're clearly putting a lot of effort into trying not to understand this, and I guess I can't stop you. If you were honestly interested in these questions, you could just look around you at how various countries handle this, instead of grasping at straw men.
      - cr1895 8y ago
        I'm not sure why you're latching on to this notion of appropriating the work of others. In the Netherlands (what I'm familiar with), healthcare functions through compulsory private insurance. Healthcare is paid for both by insurance contributions (on the order of 120eur per month, with a deductible of about 385eur) and by taxes. If one can't afford to pay the premiums, it is subsidized by the government. It's free if you're under 18. The system functions with a sort of gatekeeping by general practicioners, where GP visits cost nothing in addition to the health insurance premiums and if there is some issue beyond which the GP can handle you are referred to a specialist. >Health insurance is supposed to pay for catastrophic losses, similar to auto and home insurance. In the Netherlands it pays for routine, preventative care as well as catastrophic losses. That's why it's compulsory for everyone. > Is health insurance a human right? Yes, in the NL. >What does "affordable" mean? What happens when hospitals and physicians reject your insurance? What co-pays and coinsurance are considered affordable? Government policy, which also dictates who is eligible for subsidy. Insurance rejection isn't a thing. >Does the right to health insurance extend to people who willingly destroy themselves for pleasure? Do they pay the same amount as people who take care of themselves? Yes, though I'm not sure what medical discretion there is if for example an elderly life-long smoker needs a transplant. Suffice to say everyone has the right to health insurance. >Can "healthcare is a human right" extend to Americans who travel to Europe for the purpose of obtaining free elective medical care at the expense of European taxpayers An American cannot travel to the NL for free healthcare.
ceejayoz 8y ago
> If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when someone infringes upon that right, such as a physician who refuses to provide services requested by a patient. Why is this a problem for healthcare, but not, say, voting (which requires people to staff the polling places etc.), or the right to a jury trial (which requires judges, baliffs, etc. as well as the jurors)?

mcv 8y ago

Physicians may very well refuse services requested by a patient if the physician doesn't think those services are good for the patient. Health care is not a self-serve buffet. This has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. And if a physician denies a patient necessary treatment, there are already ways to deal with that. Physicians are (usually?) subject to disciplinary committees that deal with malpractice and other bad behaviour by physicians. Furthermore, a physician who refuses to do their job can be fired just like anyone else who refuses their job. This also has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. So what exactly is your practical question is it's neither a straw man nor one of these two issues?

assblaster 8y ago
If a patient does not want to pay for a needed service, such as a knee replacement, but still expects a physician to provide that service with no payment, the patient will be able to file a complaint against that physician in order to take that physician's ability to make a livelihood? Furthermore, if that physician later tries to practice without a license, the government can step in and arrest that physician, using armed police, because that physician was breaking the law? Is your assumption that all physicians are either employees of the state or state-authorized hospitals? What about self-employed physicians and freestanding outpatient surgery centers?
- mcv 8y ago
  I think you are a couple of steps behind in the discussion. When people say that health care is a basic human right, they don't mean that physicians don't deserve to get paid for their work, they mean that everybody should have affordable (possibly government provided) health insurance. That insurance pays the physician. In some cases, the government simply pays for all care whether or not the patient is a citizen. But yes, if an unlicensed physician tries to practice without a license, that's generally considered illegal in most countries, and for good reason. Charlatans pretending to be able to cure patients have cost lives. There's a good reason why physicians need to meet certain standards before they're allowed to call themselves physician. Physicians can absolutely be and often are self-employed, even in countries where health care is considered a right. They too need to meet those standards. No, they can't be fired, but they can lose their license if they violate those standards. I'm not sure to what extent they're free to refuse to accept patients, but if they do accept a patient, that does come with a certain responsibility towards that patient.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    How are the phrases "healthcare is a human right" and "everybody should have affordable health insurance" even remotely connected? Health insurance is supposed to pay for catastrophic losses, similar to auto and home insurance. Is health insurance a human right? What does "affordable" mean? What happens when hospitals and physicians reject your insurance? What co-pays and coinsurance are considered affordable? Does the right to health insurance extend to people who willingly destroy themselves for pleasure? Do they pay the same amount as people who take care of themselves? Can "healthcare is a human right" extend to Americans who travel to Europe for the purpose of obtaining free elective medical care at the expense of European taxpayers? Can your idea of "healthcare is a human right" extend to other aspects of our economy? Can it be declared that programming services are a human right? Food? What kind/how much/which stores/including restaurants? Housing? How many bedrooms, bathrooms, TVs? Telephone service? Why can some people claim a right over the production of fellow citizens' work, but others can't claim the same rights over other people's work (like programming)?
    - mcv 8y ago
      > How are the phrases "healthcare is a human right" and "everybody should have affordable health insurance" even remotely connected? The latter is to ensure the former. I suppose it would be better to have a system like the NHS, because it saves on paperwork and ensures everybody has access to health care with the fewest hurdles possible, but that's not the only way to do it. It can be done through a system of private health insurance as long as it's very well regulated. But however you do it, a system where people are denied health care or go bankrupt trying to pay for health care, is not good enough. Look, you're clearly putting a lot of effort into trying not to understand this, and I guess I can't stop you. If you were honestly interested in these questions, you could just look around you at how various countries handle this, instead of grasping at straw men.
    - cr1895 8y ago
      I'm not sure why you're latching on to this notion of appropriating the work of others. In the Netherlands (what I'm familiar with), healthcare functions through compulsory private insurance. Healthcare is paid for both by insurance contributions (on the order of 120eur per month, with a deductible of about 385eur) and by taxes. If one can't afford to pay the premiums, it is subsidized by the government. It's free if you're under 18. The system functions with a sort of gatekeeping by general practicioners, where GP visits cost nothing in addition to the health insurance premiums and if there is some issue beyond which the GP can handle you are referred to a specialist. >Health insurance is supposed to pay for catastrophic losses, similar to auto and home insurance. In the Netherlands it pays for routine, preventative care as well as catastrophic losses. That's why it's compulsory for everyone. > Is health insurance a human right? Yes, in the NL. >What does "affordable" mean? What happens when hospitals and physicians reject your insurance? What co-pays and coinsurance are considered affordable? Government policy, which also dictates who is eligible for subsidy. Insurance rejection isn't a thing. >Does the right to health insurance extend to people who willingly destroy themselves for pleasure? Do they pay the same amount as people who take care of themselves? Yes, though I'm not sure what medical discretion there is if for example an elderly life-long smoker needs a transplant. Suffice to say everyone has the right to health insurance. >Can "healthcare is a human right" extend to Americans who travel to Europe for the purpose of obtaining free elective medical care at the expense of European taxpayers An American cannot travel to the NL for free healthcare.

ceejayoz 8y ago

> If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when someone infringes upon that right, such as a physician who refuses to provide services requested by a patient. Why is this a problem for healthcare, but not, say, voting (which requires people to staff the polling places etc.), or the right to a jury trial (which requires judges, baliffs, etc. as well as the jurors)?