5 ms·

I'm struggling to understand how you've connected "health care is a basic right" to the state imposing something on a person by threat of violence.

by cr1895 8y ago

assblaster 8y ago
How do you compel physicians to treat someone who comes to them asking for services? If a physician refuses to perform a knee replacement, for instance, because a patient does not want to pay for it, does the government step in and force the physician to do it? In the United States, physicians have autonomy to decide how they practice. Do physicians in Europe have autonomy?
- detaro 8y ago
  The vast majority of emergency departments in the US is not allowed to turn someone away if they need emergency care. Somehow, that works even there. (even though due to lack of universal healthcare payment is not secured) Many jurisdictions, including some US states, legally require everyone to provide emergency aid if possible, not just doctors. The entire talking point about the individual doctor is a tired straw man, societies manage people having rights guaranteed by the system of society all the time, they do not break down if an individual person steps out of line.
mcv 8y ago
Forcing people under threat of violence is a popular strawman with people who oppose a civil society. Maybe it's the only way they can think of to get things done?
- assblaster 8y ago
  It's not a straw man, it's a practical question. If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when someone infringes upon that right, such as a physician who refuses to provide services requested by a patient.
  - mcv 8y ago
    Physicians may very well refuse services requested by a patient if the physician doesn't think those services are good for the patient. Health care is not a self-serve buffet. This has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. And if a physician denies a patient necessary treatment, there are already ways to deal with that. Physicians are (usually?) subject to disciplinary committees that deal with malpractice and other bad behaviour by physicians. Furthermore, a physician who refuses to do their job can be fired just like anyone else who refuses their job. This also has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. So what exactly is your practical question is it's neither a straw man nor one of these two issues?
    - assblaster 8y ago
      If a patient does not want to pay for a needed service, such as a knee replacement, but still expects a physician to provide that service with no payment, the patient will be able to file a complaint against that physician in order to take that physician's ability to make a livelihood? Furthermore, if that physician later tries to practice without a license, the government can step in and arrest that physician, using armed police, because that physician was breaking the law? Is your assumption that all physicians are either employees of the state or state-authorized hospitals? What about self-employed physicians and freestanding outpatient surgery centers?
      - mcv 8y ago
        I think you are a couple of steps behind in the discussion. When people say that health care is a basic human right, they don't mean that physicians don't deserve to get paid for their work, they mean that everybody should have affordable (possibly government provided) health insurance. That insurance pays the physician. In some cases, the government simply pays for all care whether or not the patient is a citizen. But yes, if an unlicensed physician tries to practice without a license, that's generally considered illegal in most countries, and for good reason. Charlatans pretending to be able to cure patients have cost lives. There's a good reason why physicians need to meet certain standards before they're allowed to call themselves physician. Physicians can absolutely be and often are self-employed, even in countries where health care is considered a right. They too need to meet those standards. No, they can't be fired, but they can lose their license if they violate those standards. I'm not sure to what extent they're free to refuse to accept patients, but if they do accept a patient, that does come with a certain responsibility towards that patient.

I'm struggling to understand how you've connected "health care is a basic right" to the state imposing something on a person by threat of violence.

by cr1895 8y ago

I'm struggling to understand how you've connected "health care is a basic right" to the state imposing something on a person by threat of violence.

assblaster 8y ago

How do you compel physicians to treat someone who comes to them asking for services? If a physician refuses to perform a knee replacement, for instance, because a patient does not want to pay for it, does the government step in and force the physician to do it? In the United States, physicians have autonomy to decide how they practice. Do physicians in Europe have autonomy?

detaro 8y ago
The vast majority of emergency departments in the US is not allowed to turn someone away if they need emergency care. Somehow, that works even there. (even though due to lack of universal healthcare payment is not secured) Many jurisdictions, including some US states, legally require everyone to provide emergency aid if possible, not just doctors. The entire talking point about the individual doctor is a tired straw man, societies manage people having rights guaranteed by the system of society all the time, they do not break down if an individual person steps out of line.

mcv 8y ago

Forcing people under threat of violence is a popular strawman with people who oppose a civil society. Maybe it's the only way they can think of to get things done?

assblaster 8y ago
It's not a straw man, it's a practical question. If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when someone infringes upon that right, such as a physician who refuses to provide services requested by a patient.
- mcv 8y ago
  Physicians may very well refuse services requested by a patient if the physician doesn't think those services are good for the patient. Health care is not a self-serve buffet. This has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. And if a physician denies a patient necessary treatment, there are already ways to deal with that. Physicians are (usually?) subject to disciplinary committees that deal with malpractice and other bad behaviour by physicians. Furthermore, a physician who refuses to do their job can be fired just like anyone else who refuses their job. This also has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. So what exactly is your practical question is it's neither a straw man nor one of these two issues?
  - assblaster 8y ago
    If a patient does not want to pay for a needed service, such as a knee replacement, but still expects a physician to provide that service with no payment, the patient will be able to file a complaint against that physician in order to take that physician's ability to make a livelihood? Furthermore, if that physician later tries to practice without a license, the government can step in and arrest that physician, using armed police, because that physician was breaking the law? Is your assumption that all physicians are either employees of the state or state-authorized hospitals? What about self-employed physicians and freestanding outpatient surgery centers?
    - mcv 8y ago
      I think you are a couple of steps behind in the discussion. When people say that health care is a basic human right, they don't mean that physicians don't deserve to get paid for their work, they mean that everybody should have affordable (possibly government provided) health insurance. That insurance pays the physician. In some cases, the government simply pays for all care whether or not the patient is a citizen. But yes, if an unlicensed physician tries to practice without a license, that's generally considered illegal in most countries, and for good reason. Charlatans pretending to be able to cure patients have cost lives. There's a good reason why physicians need to meet certain standards before they're allowed to call themselves physician. Physicians can absolutely be and often are self-employed, even in countries where health care is considered a right. They too need to meet those standards. No, they can't be fired, but they can lose their license if they violate those standards. I'm not sure to what extent they're free to refuse to accept patients, but if they do accept a patient, that does come with a certain responsibility towards that patient.