4 ms·

Read a random one, "Kaiser Foundation Hospital - San Francisco", Common25 is quite readable. but "CDM" is exactly as described in the article, it's basically an

Read a random one, "Kaiser Foundation Hospital - San Francisco", Common25 is quite readable. but "CDM" is exactly as described in the article, it's basically an endless list of codenamed items. > Emergency Room Visit, Level 2 (low to moderate severity) $1,185.00 > Emergency Room Visit, Level 3 (moderate severity) $2,105.00 > Emergency Room Visit, Level 4 (high severity without signigicant threat) $3,263.00 > Emergency Room Visit, Level 4 (high severity with significant threat) $5,009.00 I guess that's the very minimum base price, quite offensive for an european like me.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tyfon 8y ago
Yes, here the emergency rooms are not allowed to even ask for name in case it will be a deterrent for an illegal immigrant to seek health care. Health care is a basic human right. We had an incident where a hospital here tried to charge an illegal for giving birth. It was an uproar in the news for weeks and the bill was dropped and hospital fined.
- assblaster 8y ago
  >Health care is a basic human right. How do you compel physicians to treat someone against their wishes? Threat of violence or other bodily harm? Genuinely curious how you Europeans enforce that "human right".
  - cr1895 8y ago
    I'm struggling to understand how you've connected "health care is a basic right" to the state imposing something on a person by threat of violence.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      How do you compel physicians to treat someone who comes to them asking for services? If a physician refuses to perform a knee replacement, for instance, because a patient does not want to pay for it, does the government step in and force the physician to do it? In the United States, physicians have autonomy to decide how they practice. Do physicians in Europe have autonomy?
      - detaro 8y ago
        The vast majority of emergency departments in the US is not allowed to turn someone away if they need emergency care. Somehow, that works even there. (even though due to lack of universal healthcare payment is not secured) Many jurisdictions, including some US states, legally require everyone to provide emergency aid if possible, not just doctors. The entire talking point about the individual doctor is a tired straw man, societies manage people having rights guaranteed by the system of society all the time, they do not break down if an individual person steps out of line.
    - mcv 8y ago
      Forcing people under threat of violence is a popular strawman with people who oppose a civil society. Maybe it's the only way they can think of to get things done?
      - assblaster 8y ago
        It's not a straw man, it's a practical question. If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when someone infringes upon that right, such as a physician who refuses to provide services requested by a patient.
        mcv 8y ago
        Physicians may very well refuse services requested by a patient if the physician doesn't think those services are good for the patient. Health care is not a self-serve buffet. This has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. And if a physician denies a patient necessary treatment, there are already ways to deal with that. Physicians are (usually?) subject to disciplinary committees that deal with malpractice and other bad behaviour by physicians. Furthermore, a physician who refuses to do their job can be fired just like anyone else who refuses their job. This also has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. So what exactly is your practical question is it's neither a straw man nor one of these two issues?
        assblaster 8y ago
        If a patient does not want to pay for a needed service, such as a knee replacement, but still expects a physician to provide that service with no payment, the patient will be able to file a complaint against that physician in order to take that physician's ability to make a livelihood? Furthermore, if that physician later tries to practice without a license, the government can step in and arrest that physician, using armed police, because that physician was breaking the law? Is your assumption that all physicians are either employees of the state or state-authorized hospitals? What about self-employed physicians and freestanding outpatient surgery centers?
  - dbbk 8y ago
    What are you on about? Having the right to it doesn't mean you're forced to have it.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      No, I'm asking about how you go about forcing physicians to provide services against the physician's wishes. Maybe frame it in a different field: if programming services was declared a human right, how would you go about ensuring that every programmer provides services to everyone who asks for services regardless of payment? How do you ensure quality as well?
      - mcv 8y ago
        Standards, regulation and ensuring people get paid. If programming services was decided to be a human right, and I was in the business of providing those services, I'd expect there to be a system in place to ensure my services meet the standard, and to ensure that I get paid for my work. Consider legal representation: that is also a right. Sadly it's often very expensive, but for people who cannot afford a lawyer, one is generally provided by the government. And while there's certainly a lot that can be improved about the lawyering business, lawyers aren't exactly starving. I am aware that for most examples I can come up with, the US tends to do a poorer job than most countries. I guess it's no surprise that health insurance is in such a sorry state in the US, and that many people have such weird misconceptions about things like this.
        assblaster 8y ago
        >If programming services was decided to be a human right, and I was in the business of providing those services, I'd expect there to be a system in place to ensure my services meet the standard, and to ensure that I get paid for my work. What if you get paid 25% of what you get paid right now because those in charge of regulating programming have determined that you have been getting paid too much? What if those regulators have determined that your current documentation is insufficient to be paid for, and that you are now required to spend 25% more of your day on additional documentation requirements that do not actually improve the quality of your actual program?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

tyfon 8y ago

Yes, here the emergency rooms are not allowed to even ask for name in case it will be a deterrent for an illegal immigrant to seek health care. Health care is a basic human right. We had an incident where a hospital here tried to charge an illegal for giving birth. It was an uproar in the news for weeks and the bill was dropped and hospital fined.

assblaster 8y ago
>Health care is a basic human right. How do you compel physicians to treat someone against their wishes? Threat of violence or other bodily harm? Genuinely curious how you Europeans enforce that "human right".
- cr1895 8y ago
  I'm struggling to understand how you've connected "health care is a basic right" to the state imposing something on a person by threat of violence.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    How do you compel physicians to treat someone who comes to them asking for services? If a physician refuses to perform a knee replacement, for instance, because a patient does not want to pay for it, does the government step in and force the physician to do it? In the United States, physicians have autonomy to decide how they practice. Do physicians in Europe have autonomy?
    - detaro 8y ago
      The vast majority of emergency departments in the US is not allowed to turn someone away if they need emergency care. Somehow, that works even there. (even though due to lack of universal healthcare payment is not secured) Many jurisdictions, including some US states, legally require everyone to provide emergency aid if possible, not just doctors. The entire talking point about the individual doctor is a tired straw man, societies manage people having rights guaranteed by the system of society all the time, they do not break down if an individual person steps out of line.
  - mcv 8y ago
    Forcing people under threat of violence is a popular strawman with people who oppose a civil society. Maybe it's the only way they can think of to get things done?
    - assblaster 8y ago
      It's not a straw man, it's a practical question. If healthcare was a human right, you should be able to describe how you enforce that right, especially when someone infringes upon that right, such as a physician who refuses to provide services requested by a patient.
      - mcv 8y ago
        Physicians may very well refuse services requested by a patient if the physician doesn't think those services are good for the patient. Health care is not a self-serve buffet. This has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. And if a physician denies a patient necessary treatment, there are already ways to deal with that. Physicians are (usually?) subject to disciplinary committees that deal with malpractice and other bad behaviour by physicians. Furthermore, a physician who refuses to do their job can be fired just like anyone else who refuses their job. This also has nothing to do with health care being a basic right. So what exactly is your practical question is it's neither a straw man nor one of these two issues?
        assblaster 8y ago
        If a patient does not want to pay for a needed service, such as a knee replacement, but still expects a physician to provide that service with no payment, the patient will be able to file a complaint against that physician in order to take that physician's ability to make a livelihood? Furthermore, if that physician later tries to practice without a license, the government can step in and arrest that physician, using armed police, because that physician was breaking the law? Is your assumption that all physicians are either employees of the state or state-authorized hospitals? What about self-employed physicians and freestanding outpatient surgery centers?
- dbbk 8y ago
  What are you on about? Having the right to it doesn't mean you're forced to have it.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    No, I'm asking about how you go about forcing physicians to provide services against the physician's wishes. Maybe frame it in a different field: if programming services was declared a human right, how would you go about ensuring that every programmer provides services to everyone who asks for services regardless of payment? How do you ensure quality as well?
    - mcv 8y ago
      Standards, regulation and ensuring people get paid. If programming services was decided to be a human right, and I was in the business of providing those services, I'd expect there to be a system in place to ensure my services meet the standard, and to ensure that I get paid for my work. Consider legal representation: that is also a right. Sadly it's often very expensive, but for people who cannot afford a lawyer, one is generally provided by the government. And while there's certainly a lot that can be improved about the lawyering business, lawyers aren't exactly starving. I am aware that for most examples I can come up with, the US tends to do a poorer job than most countries. I guess it's no surprise that health insurance is in such a sorry state in the US, and that many people have such weird misconceptions about things like this.
      - assblaster 8y ago
        >If programming services was decided to be a human right, and I was in the business of providing those services, I'd expect there to be a system in place to ensure my services meet the standard, and to ensure that I get paid for my work. What if you get paid 25% of what you get paid right now because those in charge of regulating programming have determined that you have been getting paid too much? What if those regulators have determined that your current documentation is insufficient to be paid for, and that you are now required to spend 25% more of your day on additional documentation requirements that do not actually improve the quality of your actual program?