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I actually like the move to kill background tasks. Don't get me wrong I think they're great when they're needed. But if I only installed the app because the mob

by xupybd 8y ago

I actually like the move to kill background tasks. Don't get me wrong I think they're great when they're needed. But if I only installed the app because the mobile site is crippled I don't want it to destroy my battery polling for content changes when I only open the app once in a blue moon.

me551ah 8y ago
Killing background tasks is great and Android does that automatically to save battery usage. But these manufacturers have implemented their own functionality on top of Android which cripples even critical messaging applications like WhatsApp, Slack, Gmail by not delivering Instant Messages notifications instantly.
- trsfgbb 8y ago
  Xiaomi Redmi Note 3 Pro even kills Google Maps navigation after few minutes (with screen on). I have to use MAPS.ME, it doesn't kill it.
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  I don't want Slack or Gmail to deliver notifications instantly. I'd love to have functionality that saves battery by delaying them.
  - me551ah 8y ago
    Get one of the phones listed in the link. Xiaomi is brilliant in this regard !
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      Does it allow the user to configure the delays per app?
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Both these apps allow you to do that in-app. I have Gmail not notify me for work emails and notify me for stuff on my personal account.
    - rplnt 8y ago
      That doesn't save the battery though.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      I want all the notifications. This was a question about timing. I don't want them to do the constant polling required for the notifications to appear instantly.
  - dbrgn 8y ago
    If the app is killed that doesn't just delay notifications. It prevents them until you manually open the app again.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      Yeah, but we're talking about manufacturers adding custom functionality that delays notifications to save battery.
  - dtech 8y ago
    So why not disable the notification functionality if you don't want it?
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      I want the notification functionality, I just don't need it to be instant.
      - zo1 8y ago
        Delaying them by how much?
        daveFNbuck 8y ago
        For Gmail, an hour delay would be fine. For Slack, probably 5 minutes would be ok.
  - handzbagz 8y ago
    Don't most apps use GCM to deliver notifications anyway?
- xyproto 8y ago
  I don't want WhatsApp (owned by Facebook) to run in the background on my phone at all times. I don't trust them, especially after Instagram (also owned by Facebook) started using the camera by itself on my phone, without my permission. Slack would be fine, I guess.
  - dbrgn 8y ago
    The irony: Many manufacturers factory-whitelist apps like WhatsApp, Skype, sometimes Telegram. That means that smaller messengers get killed (=no more new message notifications) and users complain to the developer because "with WhatsApp everything works fine"...
  - GeneralTspoon 8y ago
    These days the app doesn’t run in the background when receiving an FCM push notification (unless it’s already awake). The message is created by a separate Google Play Services process. It’s only when you click the notification does the target app’s process get woken up. IMO, the best way to solve this is with an explicit “Let this app run in the background” permission, rather than implementing all these “smart” features which are incredibly non-deterministic. Which leads to developer & user frustration alike. Take the example of the new “App Bucketing” battery saving feature in Android 9, plus a banking app and WhatsApp.... App Bucketing will basically restrict your background processing based on how often you interact with the app. So for your banking app (where you usually want immediate spending notifications), because you don’t really open the app that often, it’s going to start throttling your notifications (and prevent it from running arbitrary background jobs). But for WhatsApp on the other hand - because you’ll likely open it more often - it will have full permissions to run in the background any time. If as a user you wanted to prevent arbitrary WhatsApp background jobs and get instant banking notifications - well tough luck!
  - izacus 8y ago
    I think you misunderstood the core issue here - it's not that the USER can decide what runs. It's that the USER cannot override those settings and decide that something can run and function if required. There are special whitelists for apps that are allowed exceptions (e.g. Facebook and other common apps are usually allowed to work) and others are killed against the Android API guarantees (e.g. you install Signal messaging app and you don't receive messages because Huawei didn't whitelist the app).
- Arnt 8y ago
  And worse, what they're doing confuses android's own code into thinking the apps are crashy. So if you run e.g. (new JobInfo.Builder(1234, name)).setRequiresCharging(true).setRequiresDeviceIdle(true)... to do something heavy (like reindexing an on-device database) while the phone is charging, that job will simply not be run on some phones. You have to check whether it's been run at app startup, and if necessary run it while the user is actively using your app.
GeneralTspoon 8y ago
The right way to solve this is with explicit permissions (similar to iOS). Rather than arbitrarily and sporadically crippling apps with opaque limitations. Google & manufacturerers have gone too far in the quest for the Holy Grail of extending battery life. To the point where it’s negatively affects the user experience quite often (there are quite a few examples in these comments). It makes Android overall seem more buggy (for example, not receiving notifications for an instant messaging app is pretty ridiculous, assuming I’ve opted in and want these notifications). One other big issue is that push-based wake-ups on Android don’t work reliably. For example, on iOS, if you want to wake up the app in the background when you come in range of an iBeacon, you can do so (with user permission), and it just works. Meaning you don’t need to run a special arbitrary background job (which is much less battery efficient). On Android - BLE wakeups are so incredibly unreliable that entire classes of apps are becoming less and less viable. And without the loophole of running background jobs to manually scan for beacons, users (and developers) are basically shit out of luck.
- Nursie 8y ago
  God save us from beacon-related functionality anyway. No I don't want my day interrupted for a message about your service, sorry!
  - GeneralTspoon 8y ago
    In that case you wouldn’t opt-in to beacon notifications. But there are many people with varying use-cases - some of whome want reliable BLE detections on their devices. And if they opt-in to these notifications, then it’s a shitty experience when it doesn’t actually work as intended.
    - Nursie 8y ago
      > In that case you wouldn’t opt-in to beacon notifications. Never have, got 'location related alerts' a few times before I figured out how to switch them all off, without ever having opted in. To be fair I have no idea if these were BLE related, but they were annoying.
superasn 8y ago
Yes this is very true. Some apps like Truecaller just destroy the battery like there is no tommorow. Most other app including some games keep running just to tell me when it's time to collect my mystery box. Point being the majority of the apps are badly coded to poll or drain battery, send unnecessary notifications. This reminds me of the popup blocker thing in web browsers. While there were some legitimate uses most of the time it's abused so every browser blocked it.

by xupybd 8y ago

me551ah 8y ago

Killing background tasks is great and Android does that automatically to save battery usage. But these manufacturers have implemented their own functionality on top of Android which cripples even critical messaging applications like WhatsApp, Slack, Gmail by not delivering Instant Messages notifications instantly.

trsfgbb 8y ago
Xiaomi Redmi Note 3 Pro even kills Google Maps navigation after few minutes (with screen on). I have to use MAPS.ME, it doesn't kill it.
daveFNbuck 8y ago
I don't want Slack or Gmail to deliver notifications instantly. I'd love to have functionality that saves battery by delaying them.
- me551ah 8y ago
  Get one of the phones listed in the link. Xiaomi is brilliant in this regard !
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    Does it allow the user to configure the delays per app?
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Both these apps allow you to do that in-app. I have Gmail not notify me for work emails and notify me for stuff on my personal account.
  - rplnt 8y ago
    That doesn't save the battery though.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    I want all the notifications. This was a question about timing. I don't want them to do the constant polling required for the notifications to appear instantly.
- dbrgn 8y ago
  If the app is killed that doesn't just delay notifications. It prevents them until you manually open the app again.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    Yeah, but we're talking about manufacturers adding custom functionality that delays notifications to save battery.
- dtech 8y ago
  So why not disable the notification functionality if you don't want it?
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    I want the notification functionality, I just don't need it to be instant.
    - zo1 8y ago
      Delaying them by how much?
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago
        For Gmail, an hour delay would be fine. For Slack, probably 5 minutes would be ok.
- handzbagz 8y ago
  Don't most apps use GCM to deliver notifications anyway?
xyproto 8y ago
I don't want WhatsApp (owned by Facebook) to run in the background on my phone at all times. I don't trust them, especially after Instagram (also owned by Facebook) started using the camera by itself on my phone, without my permission. Slack would be fine, I guess.
- dbrgn 8y ago
  The irony: Many manufacturers factory-whitelist apps like WhatsApp, Skype, sometimes Telegram. That means that smaller messengers get killed (=no more new message notifications) and users complain to the developer because "with WhatsApp everything works fine"...
- GeneralTspoon 8y ago
  These days the app doesn’t run in the background when receiving an FCM push notification (unless it’s already awake). The message is created by a separate Google Play Services process. It’s only when you click the notification does the target app’s process get woken up. IMO, the best way to solve this is with an explicit “Let this app run in the background” permission, rather than implementing all these “smart” features which are incredibly non-deterministic. Which leads to developer & user frustration alike. Take the example of the new “App Bucketing” battery saving feature in Android 9, plus a banking app and WhatsApp.... App Bucketing will basically restrict your background processing based on how often you interact with the app. So for your banking app (where you usually want immediate spending notifications), because you don’t really open the app that often, it’s going to start throttling your notifications (and prevent it from running arbitrary background jobs). But for WhatsApp on the other hand - because you’ll likely open it more often - it will have full permissions to run in the background any time. If as a user you wanted to prevent arbitrary WhatsApp background jobs and get instant banking notifications - well tough luck!
- izacus 8y ago
  I think you misunderstood the core issue here - it's not that the USER can decide what runs. It's that the USER cannot override those settings and decide that something can run and function if required. There are special whitelists for apps that are allowed exceptions (e.g. Facebook and other common apps are usually allowed to work) and others are killed against the Android API guarantees (e.g. you install Signal messaging app and you don't receive messages because Huawei didn't whitelist the app).
Arnt 8y ago
And worse, what they're doing confuses android's own code into thinking the apps are crashy. So if you run e.g. (new JobInfo.Builder(1234, name)).setRequiresCharging(true).setRequiresDeviceIdle(true)... to do something heavy (like reindexing an on-device database) while the phone is charging, that job will simply not be run on some phones. You have to check whether it's been run at app startup, and if necessary run it while the user is actively using your app.

GeneralTspoon 8y ago

The right way to solve this is with explicit permissions (similar to iOS). Rather than arbitrarily and sporadically crippling apps with opaque limitations. Google & manufacturerers have gone too far in the quest for the Holy Grail of extending battery life. To the point where it’s negatively affects the user experience quite often (there are quite a few examples in these comments). It makes Android overall seem more buggy (for example, not receiving notifications for an instant messaging app is pretty ridiculous, assuming I’ve opted in and want these notifications). One other big issue is that push-based wake-ups on Android don’t work reliably. For example, on iOS, if you want to wake up the app in the background when you come in range of an iBeacon, you can do so (with user permission), and it just works. Meaning you don’t need to run a special arbitrary background job (which is much less battery efficient). On Android - BLE wakeups are so incredibly unreliable that entire classes of apps are becoming less and less viable. And without the loophole of running background jobs to manually scan for beacons, users (and developers) are basically shit out of luck.

Nursie 8y ago
God save us from beacon-related functionality anyway. No I don't want my day interrupted for a message about your service, sorry!
- GeneralTspoon 8y ago
  In that case you wouldn’t opt-in to beacon notifications. But there are many people with varying use-cases - some of whome want reliable BLE detections on their devices. And if they opt-in to these notifications, then it’s a shitty experience when it doesn’t actually work as intended.
  - Nursie 8y ago
    > In that case you wouldn’t opt-in to beacon notifications. Never have, got 'location related alerts' a few times before I figured out how to switch them all off, without ever having opted in. To be fair I have no idea if these were BLE related, but they were annoying.

superasn 8y ago

Yes this is very true. Some apps like Truecaller just destroy the battery like there is no tommorow. Most other app including some games keep running just to tell me when it's time to collect my mystery box. Point being the majority of the apps are badly coded to poll or drain battery, send unnecessary notifications. This reminds me of the popup blocker thing in web browsers. While there were some legitimate uses most of the time it's abused so every browser blocked it.