7 ms·

All punishment results in emotional injury. That's what punishment means...

mirimir 8y ago
Of course. And punishment tends to produce damaged people, who hate themselves because they're bad. Because, you know, they must be bad, because they've been punished. And because they're bad, and hate themselves, they take it out on others, whenever they can get away with it. So it's a recursive cycle of punishment.
- kabouseng 8y ago
  Citation needed for that statement. Corporal punishment has been a part of human societies for thousands of years, so you need stronger evidence for such a statement.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Crime and war have also "been a part of human societies for thousands of years". > deMause, L. (2002). The emotional life of nations. London, England: Karnac Books. > Abstract > Describes a psychogenic theory of history, arguing that childrearing and the interpersonal expression of love impact upon the national and international arenas with greater force than any bomb. The author discusses the role of mothers in political progress, our psychological dependency on our enemies, and the concept of the "social alter"--that part of the mind that infinitely restages social trauma. Furthermore, he delineates the ways in which inadequate parenting and overabundant technology interact to produce the crises of our age. Part I of this book describes how shared early personal experiences determine political behavior. The three chapters describe historically recent political events to demonstrate how shared emotions can cause political violence. Part II details a psychohistorical theory of history, first as it applies to politics and second as it explains the causes of war. Part III is a history of how child rearing has evolved and how more loving, trustful parenting has produced new kinds of human psyches, which in turn have resulted in new social and political institutions. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved) http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-17655-000 http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-17655-000 Also: https://scholar.google.de/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2015&q=psychohistory+punishment&btnG= https://scholar.google.de/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=...
    - kabouseng 8y ago
      Wahahaa you reference Lloyd deMause. One of the biggest cooks with his nonsensical and unproven theories. One of the most cockeyed theories of deMause is that the warfare fantasies of political leaders and the media in times of war reflect childbirth traumas. Even Alice Miller has criticized this specific theory. No when I meant proof I meant a proper study with controls, sample groups etc. Not any cook who writes books about his absolutely unprovable theories.
  - padolsey 8y ago
    What's funny is that your comment alluding to the generational persistence of punishment indicates the very cyclic nature that you are seeking proof of. Its persistence does not prove its worthiness ('appeal to nature'), only its ability to survive as a trait. What we have to decide is, whatever the mechanism of its survival, what is its efficacy and moral value in today's society.
    - kabouseng 8y ago
      I didn't make a statement as the parent as to the effects of punishment. Making statements requires proof, making extraordinary statements requires exteaordi ary proof.
- nearbuy 8y ago
  This seems like a pretty extreme viewpoint.
- educationdata 8y ago
  "In a review of research on emotions and moral development, the psychologist Nancy Eisenberg suggests that shame emerges when parents express anger, withdraw their love, or try to assert their power through threats of punishment: Children may begin to believe that they are bad people. Fearing this effect, some parents fail to exercise discipline at all, which can hinder the development of strong moral standards." Here is a very good read: Raising a Moral Child. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/sunday/raising-a-moral-child.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/sunday/raising-a-...
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Yes, "no punishment" <> "no training re moral principals and values". And when you do that with love, without punishment, you get people who actually have moral principals and values, rather than just pretending, in order to avoid loss of love or punishment.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Of course. And punishment tends to produce damaged people, who hate themselves because they're bad. Because, you know, they must be bad, because they've been punished. And because they're bad, and hate themselves, they take it out on others, whenever they can get away with it. So it's a recursive cycle of punishment.

kabouseng 8y ago
Citation needed for that statement. Corporal punishment has been a part of human societies for thousands of years, so you need stronger evidence for such a statement.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Crime and war have also "been a part of human societies for thousands of years". > deMause, L. (2002). The emotional life of nations. London, England: Karnac Books. > Abstract > Describes a psychogenic theory of history, arguing that childrearing and the interpersonal expression of love impact upon the national and international arenas with greater force than any bomb. The author discusses the role of mothers in political progress, our psychological dependency on our enemies, and the concept of the "social alter"--that part of the mind that infinitely restages social trauma. Furthermore, he delineates the ways in which inadequate parenting and overabundant technology interact to produce the crises of our age. Part I of this book describes how shared early personal experiences determine political behavior. The three chapters describe historically recent political events to demonstrate how shared emotions can cause political violence. Part II details a psychohistorical theory of history, first as it applies to politics and second as it explains the causes of war. Part III is a history of how child rearing has evolved and how more loving, trustful parenting has produced new kinds of human psyches, which in turn have resulted in new social and political institutions. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved) http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-17655-000 http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-17655-000 Also: https://scholar.google.de/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2015&q=psychohistory+punishment&btnG= https://scholar.google.de/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=...
  - kabouseng 8y ago
    Wahahaa you reference Lloyd deMause. One of the biggest cooks with his nonsensical and unproven theories. One of the most cockeyed theories of deMause is that the warfare fantasies of political leaders and the media in times of war reflect childbirth traumas. Even Alice Miller has criticized this specific theory. No when I meant proof I meant a proper study with controls, sample groups etc. Not any cook who writes books about his absolutely unprovable theories.
- padolsey 8y ago
  What's funny is that your comment alluding to the generational persistence of punishment indicates the very cyclic nature that you are seeking proof of. Its persistence does not prove its worthiness ('appeal to nature'), only its ability to survive as a trait. What we have to decide is, whatever the mechanism of its survival, what is its efficacy and moral value in today's society.
  - kabouseng 8y ago
    I didn't make a statement as the parent as to the effects of punishment. Making statements requires proof, making extraordinary statements requires exteaordi ary proof.
nearbuy 8y ago
This seems like a pretty extreme viewpoint.
educationdata 8y ago
"In a review of research on emotions and moral development, the psychologist Nancy Eisenberg suggests that shame emerges when parents express anger, withdraw their love, or try to assert their power through threats of punishment: Children may begin to believe that they are bad people. Fearing this effect, some parents fail to exercise discipline at all, which can hinder the development of strong moral standards." Here is a very good read: Raising a Moral Child. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/sunday/raising-a-moral-child.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/sunday/raising-a-...
- mirimir 8y ago
  Yes, "no punishment" <> "no training re moral principals and values". And when you do that with love, without punishment, you get people who actually have moral principals and values, rather than just pretending, in order to avoid loss of love or punishment.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]