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I don't think the actual study[1] takes the kind of correlation=causation approach this snippet does. That said ... > In addition to distributing report cards

I don't think the actual study[1] takes the kind of correlation=causation approach this snippet does. That said ... > In addition to distributing report cards earlier in the week, schools could consider including messaging to help prevent corporal punishment that crosses the line into abuse. But that’s a sticky issue in Florida, where some counties still allow corporal punishment in public schools. (Florida’s not alone: 19 states still allow schools to hit students, according to the Gundersen Center for Effective Discipline.) This is absolutely insane. It's 2019. I grew up in Florida and remember "the paddle" from my elementary school days but had assumed it had been stricken by now. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2717779 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abst...

gizmo686 8y ago
Non paywalled https://www.gulfcoastkidshouse.org/cms/_fle/871-71165-71064-682.pdf https://www.gulfcoastkidshouse.org/cms/_fle/871-71165-71064-...
- knappa 8y ago
  That's a lot of overlap of those confidence intervals in Table 3.
- educationdata 8y ago
  It is strange that the study does not report raw numbers of instance. How many happened after post card release vs. not after post card release? I can't find the raw numbers of such. Only raw number of breaking down by race. Also, "Of the 167906 calls to the child abuse hotline for children aged 5 to 11 years, 2017 (6.7%) were verified as physical abuse cases". Only 6.7% verified???
  - gizmo686 8y ago
    >Only 6.7% verified??? I have complaints about the quality of the study, but this is not one of them. Keep in mind that anyone in Florida who suspects abuse is required to report it to the hotline. Probably more significant is the more traditional mandated reporters, who are trained to report any suspicion of abuse, out of both an abundance of caution and to protect themselves from liability. By design, such hotlines have a high false positive rate.
    - educationdata 8y ago
      I am not blaming the high false positive rate (although itself is problem). The problem is that this kind of high false positive rate has a huge impact on the quality of the study. Be aware the followed analysis does not account for the error in reporting and verification. There are simple too many noise.
  - ebg13 8y ago
    > Only 6.7% verified??? Verified "as physical abuse cases", meaning that the rest were deemed to not be.
    - educationdata 8y ago
      Could be. Then the study should report how many were verified as abuse, how many were physical abuse.
  - fyfy18 8y ago
    I wonder if it could just be that the child abuse workers can more easily verify cases over the weekends. Maybe they need to talk to parents (who are likely working other days) before they can mark it as verified?
    - hopler 8y ago
      This is such an obvious explanation that it makes me doubt the whole study.
educationdata 8y ago
What is absolutely insane? The existence of "corporal punishment" or "physical abuse"? According to the quoted sentence ("prevent corporal punishment that crosses the line into abuse"), corporal punishment is not the same as abuse. The article also says: "Corporal punishment may include pain but is not supposed to result in injury; corporal punishment resulting in injury is physical abuse." So the line is whether the punishment resulting in injury. But it is not clear what is counted as "injury".
- nkozyra 8y ago
  > What is absolutely insane? The existence of "corporal punishment" or "physical abuse"? Corporal punishment as administered by schools.
  - educationdata 8y ago
    It is just not illegal, it does not mean the schools or teachers are actually doing it.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      Schools and teachers are actually doing it.
- cortesoft 8y ago
  Corporal punishment is insane.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Yeah. What about punishment resulting in emotional injury? All that corporal punishment teaches is that it's OK for the powerful to punish the weak.
  - nearbuy 8y ago
    All punishment results in emotional injury. That's what punishment means...
sethammons 8y ago
Corporal != Abuse. I was a teacher. Kids were not turning in homework. I gave out about 15 minutes worth of it because independant practice is important. Most kids would just not do it. So I instituted a 5 push up policy. You did 5 push ups for every day in a row you did not turn it homework. So your third day would have been 15 push ups. It worked great. Only three or so kids per class would skip homework, and few kept up the trend. This lasted a very short time. When administration heard, they shut that shit down fast as it was considered corporal punishment. Students stopped turning in homework for the most part after that.
- adn 8y ago
  Hmm, I'm not sure this is as good of an example as you think it is. If the only way to get kids to do their homework was to essentially threaten them with physical "labor" (obviously 5 push-ups isn't much) it definitely feels like there may be larger issues at play.
  - sethammons 8y ago
    Oh, for sure. The larger issues are all the issues that come with being in a poor, inner-city school where there are no real examples of how doing well in school could actually help one's life. Where gangs, violence, and going to prison or jail is assumed to be normal. I had students confused by the idea I've never been arrested and where all the adults in their family (including grandparents) are members of gangs. At this particular school, 4% would go onto any post secondary education. Less than 1% would attain a four year degree. The (majority of) students and their families had zero buy in for school meaning much of anything.

gizmo686 8y ago

Non paywalled https://www.gulfcoastkidshouse.org/cms/_fle/871-71165-71064-682.pdf https://www.gulfcoastkidshouse.org/cms/_fle/871-71165-71064-...

knappa 8y ago
That's a lot of overlap of those confidence intervals in Table 3.
educationdata 8y ago
It is strange that the study does not report raw numbers of instance. How many happened after post card release vs. not after post card release? I can't find the raw numbers of such. Only raw number of breaking down by race. Also, "Of the 167906 calls to the child abuse hotline for children aged 5 to 11 years, 2017 (6.7%) were verified as physical abuse cases". Only 6.7% verified???
- gizmo686 8y ago
  >Only 6.7% verified??? I have complaints about the quality of the study, but this is not one of them. Keep in mind that anyone in Florida who suspects abuse is required to report it to the hotline. Probably more significant is the more traditional mandated reporters, who are trained to report any suspicion of abuse, out of both an abundance of caution and to protect themselves from liability. By design, such hotlines have a high false positive rate.
  - educationdata 8y ago
    I am not blaming the high false positive rate (although itself is problem). The problem is that this kind of high false positive rate has a huge impact on the quality of the study. Be aware the followed analysis does not account for the error in reporting and verification. There are simple too many noise.
- ebg13 8y ago
  > Only 6.7% verified??? Verified "as physical abuse cases", meaning that the rest were deemed to not be.
  - educationdata 8y ago
    Could be. Then the study should report how many were verified as abuse, how many were physical abuse.
- fyfy18 8y ago
  I wonder if it could just be that the child abuse workers can more easily verify cases over the weekends. Maybe they need to talk to parents (who are likely working other days) before they can mark it as verified?
  - hopler 8y ago
    This is such an obvious explanation that it makes me doubt the whole study.

educationdata 8y ago

What is absolutely insane? The existence of "corporal punishment" or "physical abuse"? According to the quoted sentence ("prevent corporal punishment that crosses the line into abuse"), corporal punishment is not the same as abuse. The article also says: "Corporal punishment may include pain but is not supposed to result in injury; corporal punishment resulting in injury is physical abuse." So the line is whether the punishment resulting in injury. But it is not clear what is counted as "injury".

nkozyra 8y ago
> What is absolutely insane? The existence of "corporal punishment" or "physical abuse"? Corporal punishment as administered by schools.
- educationdata 8y ago
  It is just not illegal, it does not mean the schools or teachers are actually doing it.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Schools and teachers are actually doing it.
cortesoft 8y ago
Corporal punishment is insane.
mirimir 8y ago
Yeah. What about punishment resulting in emotional injury? All that corporal punishment teaches is that it's OK for the powerful to punish the weak.
- nearbuy 8y ago
  All punishment results in emotional injury. That's what punishment means...

sethammons 8y ago

Corporal != Abuse. I was a teacher. Kids were not turning in homework. I gave out about 15 minutes worth of it because independant practice is important. Most kids would just not do it. So I instituted a 5 push up policy. You did 5 push ups for every day in a row you did not turn it homework. So your third day would have been 15 push ups. It worked great. Only three or so kids per class would skip homework, and few kept up the trend. This lasted a very short time. When administration heard, they shut that shit down fast as it was considered corporal punishment. Students stopped turning in homework for the most part after that.

adn 8y ago
Hmm, I'm not sure this is as good of an example as you think it is. If the only way to get kids to do their homework was to essentially threaten them with physical "labor" (obviously 5 push-ups isn't much) it definitely feels like there may be larger issues at play.
- sethammons 8y ago
  Oh, for sure. The larger issues are all the issues that come with being in a poor, inner-city school where there are no real examples of how doing well in school could actually help one's life. Where gangs, violence, and going to prison or jail is assumed to be normal. I had students confused by the idea I've never been arrested and where all the adults in their family (including grandparents) are members of gangs. At this particular school, 4% would go onto any post secondary education. Less than 1% would attain a four year degree. The (majority of) students and their families had zero buy in for school meaning much of anything.