7 ms·

I've always refused to sign any contract with a non-compete. In every case, the employer has removed or voided it. The only exceptions were jobs in Chicago, and

I've always refused to sign any contract with a non-compete. In every case, the employer has removed or voided it. The only exceptions were jobs in Chicago, and I walked away from two different jobs because they couldn't change their contract. I often don't even bring it up during the interview, until I get an offer. At that point if they're not willing to negotiate my basic rights as a worker, it's not a company I want to work for and I'm glad I've wasted their time. Always demand to see the offer letter/agreement first before you accept, and don't be afraid to walk away if it contains a non-compete. They've screwed over at least two friends of mine and they're totally not worth it. I've written about my experiences with non-competes before: https://penguindreams.org/blog/why-i-dont-sign-non-competes/ https://penguindreams.org/blog/why-i-dont-sign-non-competes/

_m96l 8y ago
I have the opposite experience. I refused to sign non-competes for all past offers that included them, and in all cases the potential employer then walked away. That happened after lengthy interview processes that lasted multiple days and cost the employer many thousands of dollars. Gives you an idea how important these non-competes are to them. I should mention these were big, powerful employers. You might be able to negotiate them with small employers who suffer from lack of candidates.
- cc439 8y ago
  The larger the employer, the more bureacracy is involved in the hiring process. Any non-conformance to the standardized process comes with a risk of complete process failure once a corporation reaches a certain size and begins to silo off certain functional groups. I've found myself in many situations where a customer or employee requested something perfectly reasonable to settle a dispute, only for me to find there is literally no way to resolve the issue as there is no mechanism with which to do so or the individual who can move the levers is seperated by so many layers of management/org chart spaghetti that no one has a clue who to reach out to. There's always the hope that someone close to the process is willing to put their neck on the line and break procedure in a way that risks reprimand or their career but that's a fleeting chance more often than not.
  - _m96l 8y ago
    While this may all be true, the upshot is that as individual employees, we have zero leverage or bargaining power against these large employers. Even now, with the great shortage of tech talent - while is repeatedly used as a justification to import an unlimited number of foreign workers - these very same large employers who complain about this shortage, do not hesitate to reject a qualified candidate who will not sign away their right to work with a "non compete".
    - ChrisLomont 8y ago
      > we have zero leverage or bargaining power against these large employers. You have the leverage not to work there. They have the leverage not to hire you. If enough people choose to work there despite things they don’t like, your leverage is not lost because of the company being large, it’s lost because people choose to work there despite things you don’t like. Companies compete for employees.
      - _m96l 8y ago
        Have you read the article? In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed. Also, most employees aren't fully aware of what these non-competes mean anyway.
        ChrisLomont 8y ago
        >Have you read the article? Yes. > In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career. >So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed. If it's that onerous, sign one to get a job, and while getting paid, immediately look for a new job that doesn't violate it without one. Not a single state has one so broad as to prevent you from any reasonable work. Problem solved. Employment is always a negotiation. If you enter thinking you have zero leverage and are unable or unwilling to find other work, then you do have zero leverage.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ownagefool 8y ago
  I walked away from a non-compete in Edinburgh, Scotland (startup). I'm not familiar with the law, but I suspect both parties rights had statutory protections anyway, and the clause wasn't legal, but the company was insistant that I sign the contract, even to the point of having lawyers call and explain them to me. As a contractor it's not that uncommon to be presented contracts with clauses that fail disguised employment regulations. Usually with some negotiation I can get these changed, but on one occasion I recieved a lucrative offer from an intermediary that refused to change the offer. I ended up working for the same client (bank) via another intermediary. Personally, I refuse to sign bullshit clauses, but many of these companies do refuse to budge, and I imagine it's much harder for junior people to leave the money on the table.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
nacho_weekend 8y ago
Were they trading companies in chi? Worked with them in the past and that industry is ruthless in abiding their noncompetes because there’s enough people who want in the industry.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  No actually. One was document management and the other health/wellness. Here's some of my own observations of tech culture in different regions: https://penguindreams.org/blog/tech-culture-shock-from-america-to-the-south-pacific-and-seattle-to-chicago/ https://penguindreams.org/blog/tech-culture-shock-from-ameri...
  - Fins 8y ago
    Interesting, I've only had one interview as long as you describe in Chicago. I am not sure if there are fewer great engineers in Chicago; I have certainly met lots of people who were as good as anyone I've met in SV and that I've learned a lot from. I think it might be that (Midwestern sensibility and all) they aren't chasing the latest shiny thing as much, and often work in some more boring business domain, getting things done rather than "changing the world".
- pgeorgi 8y ago
  OTOH from what I've heard trading companies tend to put you on a well-paid gardening leave for the duration of the non-compete. That's somewhat reasonable, unlike the "we'll fire you, good luck finding any new employment to pay your bills" kind of non-compete.
sgustard 8y ago
> I'm glad I've wasted their time That's an odd attitude. You've also wasted your own time, yes? I can see how it's problematic to bring it up ahead of time. "By the way, I won't sign a non-compete." Immediately the company is on alert: you plan to quit after learning their secrets and go to a competitor? It's like drug testing: obviously a violation of your rights, but why would I hire this one guy who refuses to take it? The only real solution is legislative. For you to die on that hill repeatedly means the companies are still just as profitable, and you're unemployed.
- cortesoft 8y ago
  Very odd.. an individual’s time is way more valuable than a company’s time... companies waste time like it grows on trees.
- kensai 8y ago
  I disagree. If he has said this in the beginning it would have probably been the end of the process immediately. Yes, he wasted his own time, but also got XP out of it. And now the company invested already resources on him and may probably think it’s the worth the risk.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  > That's an odd attitude. You've also wasted your own time, yes? Dodging a bullet is not wasting time. In fact, not signing a noncompete implies that the employee will not be forced to wait out an unspecified period before he is authorized to accept a job offer. Thus, refusing to sign a noncompete not only saves time but also improves their chances to have access to better job opportunities.
  - Gibbon1 8y ago
    Was going to say the time wasted interviewing pales in comparison to the time wasted if the non-compete becomes an issue legally.
- perfunctory 8y ago
  > but why would I hire this one guy who refuses to take it? Am I the only one who finds this asymmetry bizarre? Shell I ask the hiring manger to take a drug test? And why would I work for him if he refuses?
throwdaddy425 8y ago
Are you a senior developer or architect? I can't imagine an employer would humor this with a new recruit or junior developer. A lot of larger employers also have rigid processes for onboarding new people and modifying contracts isn't always something they're willing to do.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  I'm a senior engineer, and as I said, I was never able to bargain away a single non-compete clause. Even with a smaller employer, you will need some bargaining power.
  - icelancer 8y ago
    I was a mid-tier engineer and was able to bargain them away because I was often recruited based on my open source contributions and community work. It's a pretty easy sell to say: "You found out about me because of this work, and it's going to continue, or you're going to pay X for me to stop it for Y years."
    - dunpeal 8y ago
      What does "open source contributions" and "community work" have to do with non-compete clauses? Non-competes prevent you from working for your employer's commercial competitors. I.E. if you leave Uber, you can't go work for Lyft. Also, it's naive to assume you can just "sell" an employer on a contractual change that goes against their goals. Saying "I'm a software engineer, and I plan to continue being a software engineer after we part ways, instead of waiting tables" also sounds like a strong "sell", but it does not work based on my experience. It's not about convincing anyone, it's about power and who has it.
      - linkregister 8y ago
        Pardon the nerd-sniping: both Uber and Lyft employees in California can job hop, because non-competes are unenforceable for employment (in general) in California. Otherwise your comment explains it well.
TheCondor 8y ago
It’s a state by state thing, They are effectively unenforceable in Colorado for most workers but they are still a fairly standard piece of boilerplate. They really don’t need to be to make most workers’ lives difficult, just the threat of a law suit might be enough to encourage someone to change jobs
simonebrunozzi 8y ago
Try with FAANG, see how it works...

_m96l 8y ago

I have the opposite experience. I refused to sign non-competes for all past offers that included them, and in all cases the potential employer then walked away. That happened after lengthy interview processes that lasted multiple days and cost the employer many thousands of dollars. Gives you an idea how important these non-competes are to them. I should mention these were big, powerful employers. You might be able to negotiate them with small employers who suffer from lack of candidates.

cc439 8y ago
The larger the employer, the more bureacracy is involved in the hiring process. Any non-conformance to the standardized process comes with a risk of complete process failure once a corporation reaches a certain size and begins to silo off certain functional groups. I've found myself in many situations where a customer or employee requested something perfectly reasonable to settle a dispute, only for me to find there is literally no way to resolve the issue as there is no mechanism with which to do so or the individual who can move the levers is seperated by so many layers of management/org chart spaghetti that no one has a clue who to reach out to. There's always the hope that someone close to the process is willing to put their neck on the line and break procedure in a way that risks reprimand or their career but that's a fleeting chance more often than not.
- _m96l 8y ago
  While this may all be true, the upshot is that as individual employees, we have zero leverage or bargaining power against these large employers. Even now, with the great shortage of tech talent - while is repeatedly used as a justification to import an unlimited number of foreign workers - these very same large employers who complain about this shortage, do not hesitate to reject a qualified candidate who will not sign away their right to work with a "non compete".
  - ChrisLomont 8y ago
    > we have zero leverage or bargaining power against these large employers. You have the leverage not to work there. They have the leverage not to hire you. If enough people choose to work there despite things they don’t like, your leverage is not lost because of the company being large, it’s lost because people choose to work there despite things you don’t like. Companies compete for employees.
    - _m96l 8y ago
      Have you read the article? In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed. Also, most employees aren't fully aware of what these non-competes mean anyway.
      - ChrisLomont 8y ago
        >Have you read the article? Yes. > In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts. As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career. >So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed. If it's that onerous, sign one to get a job, and while getting paid, immediately look for a new job that doesn't violate it without one. Not a single state has one so broad as to prevent you from any reasonable work. Problem solved. Employment is always a negotiation. If you enter thinking you have zero leverage and are unable or unwilling to find other work, then you do have zero leverage.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ownagefool 8y ago
I walked away from a non-compete in Edinburgh, Scotland (startup). I'm not familiar with the law, but I suspect both parties rights had statutory protections anyway, and the clause wasn't legal, but the company was insistant that I sign the contract, even to the point of having lawyers call and explain them to me. As a contractor it's not that uncommon to be presented contracts with clauses that fail disguised employment regulations. Usually with some negotiation I can get these changed, but on one occasion I recieved a lucrative offer from an intermediary that refused to change the offer. I ended up working for the same client (bank) via another intermediary. Personally, I refuse to sign bullshit clauses, but many of these companies do refuse to budge, and I imagine it's much harder for junior people to leave the money on the table.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

nacho_weekend 8y ago

Were they trading companies in chi? Worked with them in the past and that industry is ruthless in abiding their noncompetes because there’s enough people who want in the industry.

djsumdog 8y ago
No actually. One was document management and the other health/wellness. Here's some of my own observations of tech culture in different regions: https://penguindreams.org/blog/tech-culture-shock-from-america-to-the-south-pacific-and-seattle-to-chicago/ https://penguindreams.org/blog/tech-culture-shock-from-ameri...
- Fins 8y ago
  Interesting, I've only had one interview as long as you describe in Chicago. I am not sure if there are fewer great engineers in Chicago; I have certainly met lots of people who were as good as anyone I've met in SV and that I've learned a lot from. I think it might be that (Midwestern sensibility and all) they aren't chasing the latest shiny thing as much, and often work in some more boring business domain, getting things done rather than "changing the world".
pgeorgi 8y ago
OTOH from what I've heard trading companies tend to put you on a well-paid gardening leave for the duration of the non-compete. That's somewhat reasonable, unlike the "we'll fire you, good luck finding any new employment to pay your bills" kind of non-compete.

sgustard 8y ago

> I'm glad I've wasted their time That's an odd attitude. You've also wasted your own time, yes? I can see how it's problematic to bring it up ahead of time. "By the way, I won't sign a non-compete." Immediately the company is on alert: you plan to quit after learning their secrets and go to a competitor? It's like drug testing: obviously a violation of your rights, but why would I hire this one guy who refuses to take it? The only real solution is legislative. For you to die on that hill repeatedly means the companies are still just as profitable, and you're unemployed.

cortesoft 8y ago
Very odd.. an individual’s time is way more valuable than a company’s time... companies waste time like it grows on trees.
kensai 8y ago
I disagree. If he has said this in the beginning it would have probably been the end of the process immediately. Yes, he wasted his own time, but also got XP out of it. And now the company invested already resources on him and may probably think it’s the worth the risk.
geezerjay 8y ago
> That's an odd attitude. You've also wasted your own time, yes? Dodging a bullet is not wasting time. In fact, not signing a noncompete implies that the employee will not be forced to wait out an unspecified period before he is authorized to accept a job offer. Thus, refusing to sign a noncompete not only saves time but also improves their chances to have access to better job opportunities.
- Gibbon1 8y ago
  Was going to say the time wasted interviewing pales in comparison to the time wasted if the non-compete becomes an issue legally.
perfunctory 8y ago
> but why would I hire this one guy who refuses to take it? Am I the only one who finds this asymmetry bizarre? Shell I ask the hiring manger to take a drug test? And why would I work for him if he refuses?

throwdaddy425 8y ago

Are you a senior developer or architect? I can't imagine an employer would humor this with a new recruit or junior developer. A lot of larger employers also have rigid processes for onboarding new people and modifying contracts isn't always something they're willing to do.

dunpeal 8y ago
I'm a senior engineer, and as I said, I was never able to bargain away a single non-compete clause. Even with a smaller employer, you will need some bargaining power.
- icelancer 8y ago
  I was a mid-tier engineer and was able to bargain them away because I was often recruited based on my open source contributions and community work. It's a pretty easy sell to say: "You found out about me because of this work, and it's going to continue, or you're going to pay X for me to stop it for Y years."
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    What does "open source contributions" and "community work" have to do with non-compete clauses? Non-competes prevent you from working for your employer's commercial competitors. I.E. if you leave Uber, you can't go work for Lyft. Also, it's naive to assume you can just "sell" an employer on a contractual change that goes against their goals. Saying "I'm a software engineer, and I plan to continue being a software engineer after we part ways, instead of waiting tables" also sounds like a strong "sell", but it does not work based on my experience. It's not about convincing anyone, it's about power and who has it.
    - linkregister 8y ago
      Pardon the nerd-sniping: both Uber and Lyft employees in California can job hop, because non-competes are unenforceable for employment (in general) in California. Otherwise your comment explains it well.

TheCondor 8y ago

It’s a state by state thing, They are effectively unenforceable in Colorado for most workers but they are still a fairly standard piece of boilerplate. They really don’t need to be to make most workers’ lives difficult, just the threat of a law suit might be enough to encourage someone to change jobs

simonebrunozzi 8y ago

Try with FAANG, see how it works...