4 ms·

That's a really impressive achievement I think, those are complex applications running on complex stacks. It's certainly a big step in the direction of making H

That's a really impressive achievement I think, those are complex applications running on complex stacks. It's certainly a big step in the direction of making Haiku a system that a developer could plausibly run for the development of cross-platform applications. This coupled with the Libre Office port last year means there's a pretty strong selection of applications for it cropping up.

Apocryphon 8y ago
I wonder if Valve has hackathons and if the Proton guys want a new challenge.
- agildehaus 8y ago
  As far as I'm aware, Haiku doesn't have hardware 3D acceleration of any kind. So, please!
- joshumax 8y ago
  I worked at CodeWeavers during the development of Proton, and one of the biggest hurdles for getting Wine (and therefore Proton) running on Haiku is the memory layout of Haiku[1] and subsequent failures of mmap(). I have a Haiku port that runs basic applications out-of-tree, but many Win32 programs crash on Haiku still. 1: https://wiki.winehq.org/Haiku https://wiki.winehq.org/Haiku
  - waddlesplash 8y ago
    The memory layout of Haiku x86_64 is identical to that of Linux. Perhaps you should try there first? At any rate, we'd love to at least have your patchset in HaikuPorts, even if it's not quite ready for prime-time yet.
  - mike_hearn 8y ago
    You could just bypass the preloader completely. It exists only to work around the Linux ASLR implementation which would otherwise tend to place DSOs randomly in the address space, potentially overlapping regions that Windows keeps reserved. If Haiku doesn't implement ASLR, or lets you easily disable it, or alternatively would accept patches to ensure its address space layout is always Win32 compatible (better!) then the preloader could be disabled. However if mmap is more significantly broken then Haiku needs work - Wine does need the ability to map things into the address space at the requested locations and actually get it.
    - waddlesplash 8y ago
      Haiku implements ASLR but there are ways to disable it. They are undocumented private APIs, though. mmap on a fixed address should work just fine, unless the address is outside the normal range or in an already mapped region, which seems to be a problem on 32-bit systems. I think there are some emulators we have ports of which already use MAP_FIXED quite a bit.
badsectoracula 8y ago
But what is the point of using Haiku if you are going to run (desktop) Java applications? The main appeal of it is its native API, use of multithreading everywhere and how integrated the applications are. If you are going to treat it as just a window manager with a different theme, then why not just use XFCE - it even has a BeOS-like theme.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Which happens to be the fallacy of GNU/Linux desktop as well. The beauty of each desktop centric OS is the whole platform, the set of SDK languages, the respective frameworks for exposing the OS and hardware features that make the desktop experience unique, and IDE developer experience. If it is to run desktop agnostic apps, then anything can do.
  - mhd 8y ago
    There's always been some leeway in that. Both the original Mac OS and Windows had a variety of languages targeting it, but they tended to strive towards emulating the core SDK experience (if they weren't a wrapper around it). Unix had it different with there being no core experience in the first place -- X11 being a glorified terminal multiplexer plus xeyes. Whether it was the commercial Unices with OpenLook/NeWS vs Motif/CDE or later Linux with Qt vs Gtk. Not that there wasn't a chance -- at one time Motif won over the commercial sector and if it would've been available with the same license as Xlib/Xt, GTK would've never been developed. But that seems to be a thing of the past. These days the web forced us to give up all platform-specific UI expectations -- heck, any expectations of having a proper UI in the first place. And thus applications are all over the place, Electron being just one particularly heinous culprit. Material UI on the desktop. Plenty of applications starting up web-based interfaces in the browser. On the one hand, as you say, this doesn't make the particular desktop matter anymore, it's more a vehicle of getting your wifi driver to work properly and load the browser. So one could use Linux or even Haiku without any big losses. On the other hand, if everything's pastel-colored oatmeal, there's no big benefit from a neat, unified, C++ desktop experience that BeOS was aiming for. If you want a vision of the future, imagine HTML stomping on your face -- forever.
chaz6 8y ago
If you can now run your development tools on Haiku, what would it take to make Haiku a server platform for running your server-side applications?
- gecko 8y ago
  Haiku is a single-user system, so effectively any privilege escalation gets you root. That's enough right there for me to keep it off a server.
  - waddlesplash 8y ago
    Yes, while we need to fix the privilege issues and add proper user segmentation, we don't ever intend to aim at being a server OS.
  - ec109685 8y ago
    Isn’t the definition of privilege escalation going from non-root to root or did you mean that any RCE on an application gets you root. Nit picking comment aside, I wonder if the fact that it is single-user was one of the reasons Apple did not go with it.
    - saghm 8y ago
      On a multi-user system, you could have one non-root user gain privileges granted to another non-root user, which I think would still be considered a privilege escalation; e.g. before the escalation, I only have access to my own home directory, but afterwards, I have access to both my own and yours.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Hopefully not, it's better they focus on doing one thing well.
  - tqh 8y ago
    We only have plans for a desktop OS.

Apocryphon 8y ago

I wonder if Valve has hackathons and if the Proton guys want a new challenge.

agildehaus 8y ago
As far as I'm aware, Haiku doesn't have hardware 3D acceleration of any kind. So, please!
joshumax 8y ago
I worked at CodeWeavers during the development of Proton, and one of the biggest hurdles for getting Wine (and therefore Proton) running on Haiku is the memory layout of Haiku[1] and subsequent failures of mmap(). I have a Haiku port that runs basic applications out-of-tree, but many Win32 programs crash on Haiku still. 1: https://wiki.winehq.org/Haiku https://wiki.winehq.org/Haiku
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  The memory layout of Haiku x86_64 is identical to that of Linux. Perhaps you should try there first? At any rate, we'd love to at least have your patchset in HaikuPorts, even if it's not quite ready for prime-time yet.
- mike_hearn 8y ago
  You could just bypass the preloader completely. It exists only to work around the Linux ASLR implementation which would otherwise tend to place DSOs randomly in the address space, potentially overlapping regions that Windows keeps reserved. If Haiku doesn't implement ASLR, or lets you easily disable it, or alternatively would accept patches to ensure its address space layout is always Win32 compatible (better!) then the preloader could be disabled. However if mmap is more significantly broken then Haiku needs work - Wine does need the ability to map things into the address space at the requested locations and actually get it.
  - waddlesplash 8y ago
    Haiku implements ASLR but there are ways to disable it. They are undocumented private APIs, though. mmap on a fixed address should work just fine, unless the address is outside the normal range or in an already mapped region, which seems to be a problem on 32-bit systems. I think there are some emulators we have ports of which already use MAP_FIXED quite a bit.

badsectoracula 8y ago

But what is the point of using Haiku if you are going to run (desktop) Java applications? The main appeal of it is its native API, use of multithreading everywhere and how integrated the applications are. If you are going to treat it as just a window manager with a different theme, then why not just use XFCE - it even has a BeOS-like theme.

pjmlp 8y ago
Which happens to be the fallacy of GNU/Linux desktop as well. The beauty of each desktop centric OS is the whole platform, the set of SDK languages, the respective frameworks for exposing the OS and hardware features that make the desktop experience unique, and IDE developer experience. If it is to run desktop agnostic apps, then anything can do.
- mhd 8y ago
  There's always been some leeway in that. Both the original Mac OS and Windows had a variety of languages targeting it, but they tended to strive towards emulating the core SDK experience (if they weren't a wrapper around it). Unix had it different with there being no core experience in the first place -- X11 being a glorified terminal multiplexer plus xeyes. Whether it was the commercial Unices with OpenLook/NeWS vs Motif/CDE or later Linux with Qt vs Gtk. Not that there wasn't a chance -- at one time Motif won over the commercial sector and if it would've been available with the same license as Xlib/Xt, GTK would've never been developed. But that seems to be a thing of the past. These days the web forced us to give up all platform-specific UI expectations -- heck, any expectations of having a proper UI in the first place. And thus applications are all over the place, Electron being just one particularly heinous culprit. Material UI on the desktop. Plenty of applications starting up web-based interfaces in the browser. On the one hand, as you say, this doesn't make the particular desktop matter anymore, it's more a vehicle of getting your wifi driver to work properly and load the browser. So one could use Linux or even Haiku without any big losses. On the other hand, if everything's pastel-colored oatmeal, there's no big benefit from a neat, unified, C++ desktop experience that BeOS was aiming for. If you want a vision of the future, imagine HTML stomping on your face -- forever.

chaz6 8y ago

If you can now run your development tools on Haiku, what would it take to make Haiku a server platform for running your server-side applications?

gecko 8y ago
Haiku is a single-user system, so effectively any privilege escalation gets you root. That's enough right there for me to keep it off a server.
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  Yes, while we need to fix the privilege issues and add proper user segmentation, we don't ever intend to aim at being a server OS.
- ec109685 8y ago
  Isn’t the definition of privilege escalation going from non-root to root or did you mean that any RCE on an application gets you root. Nit picking comment aside, I wonder if the fact that it is single-user was one of the reasons Apple did not go with it.
  - saghm 8y ago
    On a multi-user system, you could have one non-root user gain privileges granted to another non-root user, which I think would still be considered a privilege escalation; e.g. before the escalation, I only have access to my own home directory, but afterwards, I have access to both my own and yours.
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Hopefully not, it's better they focus on doing one thing well.
- tqh 8y ago
  We only have plans for a desktop OS.