4 ms·

I love the whole gist of this article, but the author writes like an insufferable prick at times. > After genetic testing confirmed the diagnosis, one doctor a

I love the whole gist of this article, but the author writes like an insufferable prick at times. > After genetic testing confirmed the diagnosis, one doctor assured us that “they’re such happy people.” They. Them. Those people. Damn, give the doctor a break. There appears to be no way to talk about people with Down's syndrome as a group without offending this guy's rules.

costcopizza 8y ago
The tone is a bit dramatic, but the criticism isn’t. I bet the doctor doesn’t refer to a race as “they” along with a singular characteristic. Why would a disability be different? It’s the same as when people expect all people on the spectrum to be savants.
- nate_meurer 8y ago
  We need to talk about groups of people all the time. Yes, even racial groups, e.g., "Black American males have higher rates of heart disease than their white counterparts" That black American males are a "they" in this sentence is an unavoidable feature of the language. How are we supposed to make statements like these without being accused of othering? Would you feel differently if the doctor had said something like, "They have high rates of happiness"? How is that different?
  - GordonS 8y ago
    > We need to talk about groups of people all the time. Yes, even racial groups Of course, but you wouldn't make ludicrous statements like "all black people are good at dancing", or "all black people are fast runners" - so why would it be OK to say that "Down's people are happy"? Nobody is claiming we can't talk about people with Down's, or other disabilities, as a group - but we can do it without predujice and discrimination.
    - anextomp 8y ago
      It's fairly clear that the doctor did not mean that all people with Down's syndrome are happy. When talking about large groups in that manner, the average is implied. "The dutch are tall" does not mean that all dutch people are tall, but that on average they are taller than ourselves. Yes, talking about large groups of people can devolve into prejudice and discrimination, but in this case we're dealing with a group of people who are substantially, physically different. It is rational to point out the impacts of those differences.
      - GordonS 8y ago
        > It's fairly clear that the doctor did not mean that all people with Down's syndrome are happy > When talking about large groups in that manner, the average is implied. No, this is actually a well-ingrained stereotype, and I've heard exactly the same words from dozens of people (including those in the medical profession) - it seems fairly clear that the doctor was indeed stereotyping. > "The dutch are tall" does not mean that all dutch people are tall, but that on average they are taller than ourselves. > in this case we're dealing with a group of people who are substantially, physically different. It is rational to point out the impacts of those differences. I'm sorry, but this is utterly absurd - you are talking about things that are factual; it is not a fact that people with Down's Syndrome are happier than other groups, neither do related physical differences (facial features, hypotonia, heart problems, whatever) them happy.
        nate_meurer 8y ago
        > it is not a fact that people with Down's Syndrome are happier than other groups. This is a odd thing to assert so forcefully. Have you seen any studies supporting this? FWIW, [1] is a survey indicating that the Down's syndrome population (in America anyway) might be endowed with fantastically high levels of happiness, satisfaction, and self esteem. Here's a quote: Nearly 99% of people with Down syndrome indicated that they were happy with their lives; 97% liked who they are; and 96% liked how they look. Nearly 99% people with Down syndrome expressed love for their families, and 97% liked their brothers and sisters. While 86% of people with Down syndrome felt they could make friends easily, those with difficulties mostly had isolating living situations. A small percentage expressed sadness about their life. Call me crazy, but I suspect these numbers are far higher than what you'd get from a non-Downs population. It certainly seems like a reasonable and innocent bit of cheer for a doctor to offer to a new dad. 1 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3740159/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3740159/
GordonS 8y ago
Erm... no? How is it acceptable in any way to make sweeping statements like that? > There appears to be no way to talk about people with Down's syndrome as a group without offending this guy's rule Yes there is - talk about people with Down's syndrome as you would about people. It's also perfectly possible to talk about the often related physical/health/mental conditions that affected people with Down's without making 60's throwbacks such as saying "they are all happy". It feels like we've come forward leaps and bound on racial equality, but it honestly still feels like a lot people treat those with disabilities as an invisible subclass of inhuman monsters. Disclaimer: I'm the father of a daughter with Down's
- toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
  The issue is that some genetic disorders do in fact have characteristic expressions from the physical to the mental. I’m not going to comment on Down’s Syndrome, but plenty of others do with the most striking being William’s Syndrome. It’s one thing to dismiss people as happy, another to make a valid clinical observation, and yet another to attempt to find a silver lining in a moment of crisis. Leaping to judge someone’s entire mental landscape by comparison to racism, based on a single statement and possibly poor choice of words is so harsh as to be without value.
  - GordonS 8y ago
    > The issue is that some genetic disorders do in fact have characteristic expressions from the physical to the mental That's not the issue. The issue is thinking it's OK to make ludicrous, stereotypically comments about a huge group of people. > Leaping to judge someone’s entire mental landscape by comparison to racism, based on a single statement and possibly poor choice of words is so harsh as to be without value. I wholeheartedly disagree. While my comment was in reply to a stereotyping comment, it was aimed at the wider group of people who still today spout such nonsense - I should have made that clearer tho. In particular, the doctor in the OP is a doctor, and should know better than to say such ridiculous things. I also think the comparison to racism is valid. Many of the discriminating comments against those with disabilities are made out of ignorance. We've come a long way legislating and educating people about race, and it's made an incredible difference (at least in the UK; I realise the situation in the US is complex to say the least), and I think it's high time people stopping thinking it was OK to make comments like "all Down's are happy".
danharaj 8y ago
The plank in your eye.

costcopizza 8y ago

The tone is a bit dramatic, but the criticism isn’t. I bet the doctor doesn’t refer to a race as “they” along with a singular characteristic. Why would a disability be different? It’s the same as when people expect all people on the spectrum to be savants.

nate_meurer 8y ago
We need to talk about groups of people all the time. Yes, even racial groups, e.g., "Black American males have higher rates of heart disease than their white counterparts" That black American males are a "they" in this sentence is an unavoidable feature of the language. How are we supposed to make statements like these without being accused of othering? Would you feel differently if the doctor had said something like, "They have high rates of happiness"? How is that different?
- GordonS 8y ago
  > We need to talk about groups of people all the time. Yes, even racial groups Of course, but you wouldn't make ludicrous statements like "all black people are good at dancing", or "all black people are fast runners" - so why would it be OK to say that "Down's people are happy"? Nobody is claiming we can't talk about people with Down's, or other disabilities, as a group - but we can do it without predujice and discrimination.
  - anextomp 8y ago
    It's fairly clear that the doctor did not mean that all people with Down's syndrome are happy. When talking about large groups in that manner, the average is implied. "The dutch are tall" does not mean that all dutch people are tall, but that on average they are taller than ourselves. Yes, talking about large groups of people can devolve into prejudice and discrimination, but in this case we're dealing with a group of people who are substantially, physically different. It is rational to point out the impacts of those differences.
    - GordonS 8y ago
      > It's fairly clear that the doctor did not mean that all people with Down's syndrome are happy > When talking about large groups in that manner, the average is implied. No, this is actually a well-ingrained stereotype, and I've heard exactly the same words from dozens of people (including those in the medical profession) - it seems fairly clear that the doctor was indeed stereotyping. > "The dutch are tall" does not mean that all dutch people are tall, but that on average they are taller than ourselves. > in this case we're dealing with a group of people who are substantially, physically different. It is rational to point out the impacts of those differences. I'm sorry, but this is utterly absurd - you are talking about things that are factual; it is not a fact that people with Down's Syndrome are happier than other groups, neither do related physical differences (facial features, hypotonia, heart problems, whatever) them happy.
      - nate_meurer 8y ago
        > it is not a fact that people with Down's Syndrome are happier than other groups. This is a odd thing to assert so forcefully. Have you seen any studies supporting this? FWIW, [1] is a survey indicating that the Down's syndrome population (in America anyway) might be endowed with fantastically high levels of happiness, satisfaction, and self esteem. Here's a quote: Nearly 99% of people with Down syndrome indicated that they were happy with their lives; 97% liked who they are; and 96% liked how they look. Nearly 99% people with Down syndrome expressed love for their families, and 97% liked their brothers and sisters. While 86% of people with Down syndrome felt they could make friends easily, those with difficulties mostly had isolating living situations. A small percentage expressed sadness about their life. Call me crazy, but I suspect these numbers are far higher than what you'd get from a non-Downs population. It certainly seems like a reasonable and innocent bit of cheer for a doctor to offer to a new dad. 1 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3740159/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3740159/

GordonS 8y ago

Erm... no? How is it acceptable in any way to make sweeping statements like that? > There appears to be no way to talk about people with Down's syndrome as a group without offending this guy's rule Yes there is - talk about people with Down's syndrome as you would about people. It's also perfectly possible to talk about the often related physical/health/mental conditions that affected people with Down's without making 60's throwbacks such as saying "they are all happy". It feels like we've come forward leaps and bound on racial equality, but it honestly still feels like a lot people treat those with disabilities as an invisible subclass of inhuman monsters. Disclaimer: I'm the father of a daughter with Down's

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
The issue is that some genetic disorders do in fact have characteristic expressions from the physical to the mental. I’m not going to comment on Down’s Syndrome, but plenty of others do with the most striking being William’s Syndrome. It’s one thing to dismiss people as happy, another to make a valid clinical observation, and yet another to attempt to find a silver lining in a moment of crisis. Leaping to judge someone’s entire mental landscape by comparison to racism, based on a single statement and possibly poor choice of words is so harsh as to be without value.
- GordonS 8y ago
  > The issue is that some genetic disorders do in fact have characteristic expressions from the physical to the mental That's not the issue. The issue is thinking it's OK to make ludicrous, stereotypically comments about a huge group of people. > Leaping to judge someone’s entire mental landscape by comparison to racism, based on a single statement and possibly poor choice of words is so harsh as to be without value. I wholeheartedly disagree. While my comment was in reply to a stereotyping comment, it was aimed at the wider group of people who still today spout such nonsense - I should have made that clearer tho. In particular, the doctor in the OP is a doctor, and should know better than to say such ridiculous things. I also think the comparison to racism is valid. Many of the discriminating comments against those with disabilities are made out of ignorance. We've come a long way legislating and educating people about race, and it's made an incredible difference (at least in the UK; I realise the situation in the US is complex to say the least), and I think it's high time people stopping thinking it was OK to make comments like "all Down's are happy".

danharaj 8y ago

The plank in your eye.