4 ms·

> I wasn't good enough to really derive newtonian method on my own. There is an old SMBC comic highlighting this general issue in STEM where for some mysteriou

> I wasn't good enough to really derive newtonian method on my own. There is an old SMBC comic highlighting this general issue in STEM where for some mysterious reason, mathematical theories that took at least a few scientific generations to figure out, with lots of bitter fighting among the giants of science about which conclusion we should accept as correct, are now being taught as if they are trivial to reproduce and come up with for bachelor students. As a physics drop-out, I felt really relieved when I read that, in a "oh so it's not just me"-sense

agumonkey 8y ago
I grew up bothered by this on many levels. Not only some of us feel negatively for the struggle. I believe that ~learning the results teaches less than learning how to solve it. I does accelerate learning and allow people not to reinvent all 4 wheels... but reading old papers (there's a video on Newton's very own notebook, it is so damn different from anything I've ever read about physics) tickles another part of your mind.
- codetrotter 8y ago
  > there's a video on Newton's very own notebook, it is so damn different from anything I've ever read about physics Sounds interesting. Would like to watch it. Got a link?
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    I think that's this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObPg3ki9GOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObPg3ki9GOI They don't review all of it, but you can get a few pages read
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  Similarly, a lot of James Clerk Maxwell's writing can be found on Archive.org, and it's amazing: https://archive.org/search.php?query=maxwell%2C+james+clerk&and%5B%5D=creator%3A%22james+clerk+maxwell%22&and%5B%5D=creator%3A%22maxwell%2C+james+clerk%2C+1831-1879%22&sort=-date&page=2 https://archive.org/search.php?query=maxwell%2C+james+clerk&...
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    too easy, last night I went to Gilbert De Magnete (original in latin no less) http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33810?msg=welcome_stranger http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33810?msg=welcome_stranger
    - vanderZwan 8y ago
      You joke (and cool find), but Maxwell's writings one the subject of electromagnetism are indeed a lot easier to grasp than some modern textbooks
      - agumonkey 8y ago
        I don't doubt it
  - PaulHoule 8y ago
    It's not unusual that original scientific works are more clear than the later works of people trying to explain them. The original author has to persuade people, and convince people who aren't familiar with them. The "pedagogical" author later is in a more clear position of authority and doesn't need to work as hard.
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > The original author has to persuade people, and convince people who aren't familiar with them. The "pedagogical" author later is in a more clear position of authority and doesn't need to work as hard. Or perhaps: The "pedagogical" author can assume that by the time of his writing, we live in a society where it is accepted that there is nothing mysterious about the material (e.g. imaginary numbers are nothing mysterious) and can concentrate on explaining the material in the best possible way. The problem is that many students come from a background where they were taught a deeply anti-scientific attitude. EDIT: To put it more concisely: It is a different job to convince someone of a scientific result (here the other side is distrusting) than to teach it (here the other side gives you credit of trust (but a lack of understanding) and you have to teach them so that they understand it). Unluckily many students who attend lectures have an attitude where they need to be convinced instead of taught.
Apocryphon 8y ago
So that’s where Google- and all of the tech companies aping Google- got their interviewing style from.
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  Hah! I do wonder if it isn't simply human nature though, something we actively have to unlearn.
  - jammygit 8y ago
    Google is made up of high test achievers who move on to decide how to test applicants. Its self perpetuating in that casez not human nature
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
learc83 8y ago
I got the same feeling when taking timed tests in some of the more proof heavy CS classes. In a lot of ways it felt like solving crossword puzzles for a grade with a timer ticking down. Frequently I'd spend the most of the test with no idea what to do, and then about 20 minutes before time was up, I'd have an insight and I'd spend the last 15 minutes furiously racing to write it all down. This worked out well and I ended up with a 4.0 program GPA, but I was a wreck every test day--I was always convinced that this was the day I'd fail to have that last minute epiphany. I was always looking for a more systematic approach, but I never found one. In the end I still don't know if the problem was me or the tests.
bch 8y ago
Is this[0] what you were thinking of? [0] https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/how-math-works https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/how-math-works
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  Yes, thank you!
wutbrodo 8y ago
Invention and comprehension through Socratic guidance are different tasks, with wildly different levels of difficulty. It's just not accurate to pretend that students are expected to "come up with" these theories in anywhere close to the way that (eg) Newton did.
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  Correct, but perhaps not in the way you are thinking. Newton was something else, but still: he had acquired a vast amount of knowledge and insight upon which he built his new theorems. Meanwhile, experts are notoriously good at forgetting what it is like to not understand something yet, so when explaining things they subconsciously presume more a priori knowledge than is appropriate.
vkazanov 8y ago
This comic is brilliant! I ended up being a programmer but I graduated with an Electrical Engineering degree. What's interesting is that I generally don't recall fundamental physics or applied coursed having this attitude, i.e. nobody expects students to understand theories without proper context set up. Physics is generally taught from experiments. I believe math is mostly guilty here :-) For some reason most of school math is taught as a bunch of soulless abstract sybmol manipulation. No proofs, no reasoning, pure memory-based excersises. Then you come to a university and they just go on. Proofs-proofs-proofs, but with the same mechanical approach. No motivation, no context, just endless calculus variation. Yes, this really showed how much information I can put into my memory. But I only started to get math many years and books later.

agumonkey 8y ago

I grew up bothered by this on many levels. Not only some of us feel negatively for the struggle. I believe that ~learning the results teaches less than learning how to solve it. I does accelerate learning and allow people not to reinvent all 4 wheels... but reading old papers (there's a video on Newton's very own notebook, it is so damn different from anything I've ever read about physics) tickles another part of your mind.

codetrotter 8y ago
> there's a video on Newton's very own notebook, it is so damn different from anything I've ever read about physics Sounds interesting. Would like to watch it. Got a link?
- agumonkey 8y ago
  I think that's this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObPg3ki9GOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObPg3ki9GOI They don't review all of it, but you can get a few pages read
vanderZwan 8y ago
Similarly, a lot of James Clerk Maxwell's writing can be found on Archive.org, and it's amazing: https://archive.org/search.php?query=maxwell%2C+james+clerk&and%5B%5D=creator%3A%22james+clerk+maxwell%22&and%5B%5D=creator%3A%22maxwell%2C+james+clerk%2C+1831-1879%22&sort=-date&page=2 https://archive.org/search.php?query=maxwell%2C+james+clerk&...
- agumonkey 8y ago
  too easy, last night I went to Gilbert De Magnete (original in latin no less) http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33810?msg=welcome_stranger http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33810?msg=welcome_stranger
  - vanderZwan 8y ago
    You joke (and cool find), but Maxwell's writings one the subject of electromagnetism are indeed a lot easier to grasp than some modern textbooks
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      I don't doubt it
- PaulHoule 8y ago
  It's not unusual that original scientific works are more clear than the later works of people trying to explain them. The original author has to persuade people, and convince people who aren't familiar with them. The "pedagogical" author later is in a more clear position of authority and doesn't need to work as hard.
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > The original author has to persuade people, and convince people who aren't familiar with them. The "pedagogical" author later is in a more clear position of authority and doesn't need to work as hard. Or perhaps: The "pedagogical" author can assume that by the time of his writing, we live in a society where it is accepted that there is nothing mysterious about the material (e.g. imaginary numbers are nothing mysterious) and can concentrate on explaining the material in the best possible way. The problem is that many students come from a background where they were taught a deeply anti-scientific attitude. EDIT: To put it more concisely: It is a different job to convince someone of a scientific result (here the other side is distrusting) than to teach it (here the other side gives you credit of trust (but a lack of understanding) and you have to teach them so that they understand it). Unluckily many students who attend lectures have an attitude where they need to be convinced instead of taught.

Apocryphon 8y ago

So that’s where Google- and all of the tech companies aping Google- got their interviewing style from.

vanderZwan 8y ago
Hah! I do wonder if it isn't simply human nature though, something we actively have to unlearn.
- jammygit 8y ago
  Google is made up of high test achievers who move on to decide how to test applicants. Its self perpetuating in that casez not human nature

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

learc83 8y ago

I got the same feeling when taking timed tests in some of the more proof heavy CS classes. In a lot of ways it felt like solving crossword puzzles for a grade with a timer ticking down. Frequently I'd spend the most of the test with no idea what to do, and then about 20 minutes before time was up, I'd have an insight and I'd spend the last 15 minutes furiously racing to write it all down. This worked out well and I ended up with a 4.0 program GPA, but I was a wreck every test day--I was always convinced that this was the day I'd fail to have that last minute epiphany. I was always looking for a more systematic approach, but I never found one. In the end I still don't know if the problem was me or the tests.

bch 8y ago

Is this[0] what you were thinking of? [0] https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/how-math-works https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/how-math-works

vanderZwan 8y ago
Yes, thank you!

wutbrodo 8y ago

Invention and comprehension through Socratic guidance are different tasks, with wildly different levels of difficulty. It's just not accurate to pretend that students are expected to "come up with" these theories in anywhere close to the way that (eg) Newton did.

vanderZwan 8y ago
Correct, but perhaps not in the way you are thinking. Newton was something else, but still: he had acquired a vast amount of knowledge and insight upon which he built his new theorems. Meanwhile, experts are notoriously good at forgetting what it is like to not understand something yet, so when explaining things they subconsciously presume more a priori knowledge than is appropriate.

vkazanov 8y ago

This comic is brilliant! I ended up being a programmer but I graduated with an Electrical Engineering degree. What's interesting is that I generally don't recall fundamental physics or applied coursed having this attitude, i.e. nobody expects students to understand theories without proper context set up. Physics is generally taught from experiments. I believe math is mostly guilty here :-) For some reason most of school math is taught as a bunch of soulless abstract sybmol manipulation. No proofs, no reasoning, pure memory-based excersises. Then you come to a university and they just go on. Proofs-proofs-proofs, but with the same mechanical approach. No motivation, no context, just endless calculus variation. Yes, this really showed how much information I can put into my memory. But I only started to get math many years and books later.