5 ms·

Not sure if this is still the case but didn't SpaceX make a point to stick to trade secrets instead of patents[1] for fear of Chinese rocket agencies copying th

by ginko 8y ago

Not sure if this is still the case but didn't SpaceX make a point to stick to trade secrets instead of patents[1] for fear of Chinese rocket agencies copying them anyways? If they lay off 10% of their workforce, how do they ensure that their trade secrets are kept safe? Lay off only low-risk employees? NDAs? It was my understanding that the degree to which those can be enforced in California is limited. [1] https://www.nasdaq.com/article/is-elon-musks-spacex-protected-without-patents-cm231445 https://www.nasdaq.com/article/is-elon-musks-spacex-protecte...

late2part 8y ago
In general, in USA and California, NDAs are extremely enforceable.
Fuckyourself 8y ago
Also, i assume with a workforce of 7K not every single one of them is actually working with classified information every day.
wcoenen 8y ago
If those employees go to China with trade secrets, they might be violating ITAR. ITAR is enforced with big fines and prison time.
- nickthemagicman 8y ago
  Not easy to catch though.
  - gruez 8y ago
    so is espionage and treason
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Define easy anyone who works on such technologies is on some FBI database somewhere and likely more than just one. SpaceX doesn’t hire non-US citizens due to how hard it is to get the security clearance needed for them if they try to go to China they will likely get caught maybe not everyone, but enough to prevent any real knowledge transfer and more importantly the first one that will get caught is going to be made an example for the rest.
    - jamiek88 8y ago
      They can and do hire approved permanent residents too. It’s harder but they can work on ITAR information too. However the point stands that those people are vetted and tracked. How effective that is once they are in China or Russia etc I don’t know.
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        They can but I don’t think they do that Elon was asked several why don’t they hire non citizens. I’m sure some special cases do happen but the bulk of their workforce is US citizens. And again you assume that they won’t get caught going to Russia or China to begin with or that they won’t be tasked with assets in country once they arrive. We’re talking about 500-600 people here out of them it’s not clear how many would be really critical for technology transfer prevention but say it’s 25% so what we have is about 150 people or so that need to be tracked say 10% out of those will be contacted by a foreign entity that’s what 15 people? It’s really not hard to track them at that point. In fact I would guarantee you that this likely will be covered by their exit interview, they might even get a “scary” federal agent explaining them the do’s and don’ts and likely many of them already know them. And again this isn’t a new thing, NASA and the defense industry have fired people before it’s jot like it’s the first time that 500 people with security clearances lose jobs.
        saberience 8y ago
        They do definitely hire many green card holders, I know because I was going to be one if their offer had been better.
        lutorm 8y ago
        They don't care if you're a citizen or not, they care about whether you're legally allowed to work on rockets. From an ITAR perspective, a green card holder is the same as a US citizen, and from a recruiting perspective there is no difference.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    zaktly, and one is enough. No doubt in my mind that China has at least a few spies in all major US companies. It's hard to catch, especially if you have a nation state teaching you how to. But then a job is nothing compared to what China can pay them for a thumb-drive full of Tesla's secrets so even highly paid employees might do it for money. (Tesla is opening a factory in China though...so they might be ready to have some secrets stolen /priced in)
bunkydoo 8y ago
Well I'm not sure trade secrets matter when you have someone like Musk behind the wheel of an operation like this. For example: most of Tesla's stuff is open sourced and there are no electric cars that currently come close. From personally seeing some of their stuff with my own two eyes: anyone trying to copy even off stolen diagrams would end up with the Chinese or Russian version of the Challenger. In the case of the Russians, they STOLE the blueprints for the shuttle and built one at Baikonur, that thing never saw the light of day and is rotting in a decomposing hangar in Kazakhstan.
marcinzm 8y ago
>It was my understanding that the degree to which those can be enforced in California is limited. California limits non-compete agreements and anti-moonlighting clauses however, as far as I know, does not limit NDAs.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  Ok, but they might know classified information. Maybe when they worked or accessed it they agreed to keep it secret forever. That trumps usual NDAs.
Nokinside 8y ago
NDAs are used to protect both confidential information and trade secrets but trade secrets are treated differently from confidential information by the courts. In typical NDA you specify a defined period of time to avoid the risk of a court declaring that an NDA is too restrictive. This should not apply to trade secret. Trade secret lasts indefinitely even after NDA time period expires if all other conditions for trade secret are met. There are some cases where NDA expiring invalidates trade secret but it's mostly due to specific circumstances or badly formed NDA. You should inform the employees when they are dealing with a trade secret and use all means to keep them secret.

by ginko 8y ago

late2part 8y ago

In general, in USA and California, NDAs are extremely enforceable.

Fuckyourself 8y ago

Also, i assume with a workforce of 7K not every single one of them is actually working with classified information every day.

wcoenen 8y ago

If those employees go to China with trade secrets, they might be violating ITAR. ITAR is enforced with big fines and prison time.

nickthemagicman 8y ago
Not easy to catch though.
- gruez 8y ago
  so is espionage and treason
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Define easy anyone who works on such technologies is on some FBI database somewhere and likely more than just one. SpaceX doesn’t hire non-US citizens due to how hard it is to get the security clearance needed for them if they try to go to China they will likely get caught maybe not everyone, but enough to prevent any real knowledge transfer and more importantly the first one that will get caught is going to be made an example for the rest.
  - jamiek88 8y ago
    They can and do hire approved permanent residents too. It’s harder but they can work on ITAR information too. However the point stands that those people are vetted and tracked. How effective that is once they are in China or Russia etc I don’t know.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      They can but I don’t think they do that Elon was asked several why don’t they hire non citizens. I’m sure some special cases do happen but the bulk of their workforce is US citizens. And again you assume that they won’t get caught going to Russia or China to begin with or that they won’t be tasked with assets in country once they arrive. We’re talking about 500-600 people here out of them it’s not clear how many would be really critical for technology transfer prevention but say it’s 25% so what we have is about 150 people or so that need to be tracked say 10% out of those will be contacted by a foreign entity that’s what 15 people? It’s really not hard to track them at that point. In fact I would guarantee you that this likely will be covered by their exit interview, they might even get a “scary” federal agent explaining them the do’s and don’ts and likely many of them already know them. And again this isn’t a new thing, NASA and the defense industry have fired people before it’s jot like it’s the first time that 500 people with security clearances lose jobs.
      - saberience 8y ago
        They do definitely hire many green card holders, I know because I was going to be one if their offer had been better.
      - lutorm 8y ago
        They don't care if you're a citizen or not, they care about whether you're legally allowed to work on rockets. From an ITAR perspective, a green card holder is the same as a US citizen, and from a recruiting perspective there is no difference.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  zaktly, and one is enough. No doubt in my mind that China has at least a few spies in all major US companies. It's hard to catch, especially if you have a nation state teaching you how to. But then a job is nothing compared to what China can pay them for a thumb-drive full of Tesla's secrets so even highly paid employees might do it for money. (Tesla is opening a factory in China though...so they might be ready to have some secrets stolen /priced in)

bunkydoo 8y ago

Well I'm not sure trade secrets matter when you have someone like Musk behind the wheel of an operation like this. For example: most of Tesla's stuff is open sourced and there are no electric cars that currently come close. From personally seeing some of their stuff with my own two eyes: anyone trying to copy even off stolen diagrams would end up with the Chinese or Russian version of the Challenger. In the case of the Russians, they STOLE the blueprints for the shuttle and built one at Baikonur, that thing never saw the light of day and is rotting in a decomposing hangar in Kazakhstan.

marcinzm 8y ago

>It was my understanding that the degree to which those can be enforced in California is limited. California limits non-compete agreements and anti-moonlighting clauses however, as far as I know, does not limit NDAs.

onetimemanytime 8y ago
Ok, but they might know classified information. Maybe when they worked or accessed it they agreed to keep it secret forever. That trumps usual NDAs.

Nokinside 8y ago

NDAs are used to protect both confidential information and trade secrets but trade secrets are treated differently from confidential information by the courts. In typical NDA you specify a defined period of time to avoid the risk of a court declaring that an NDA is too restrictive. This should not apply to trade secret. Trade secret lasts indefinitely even after NDA time period expires if all other conditions for trade secret are met. There are some cases where NDA expiring invalidates trade secret but it's mostly due to specific circumstances or badly formed NDA. You should inform the employees when they are dealing with a trade secret and use all means to keep them secret.