4 ms·

I just know that Stallman is doing an "I told you so" dance right about now.

melling 16y ago
Lead, follow or get out of the way. Stallman hasn't offered a better solution than Java. Java is a better choice than C or C++. Developers are simply more productive in Java. Python, Ruby, etc don't currently offer nearly the level of performance. I'm still waiting for the version of Emacs that's written entirely in Scheme. [edit] Funny, I got voted down. Hope you guys will volunteer to rip out the Java from Open Office and rewrite it in C++.
- wmf 16y ago
  I think RMS is now pro-Java since OpenJDK came out. Harmony is a tool of capitalist oppression anyway.
  - melling 16y ago
    Stallman has his ideals, which is fine. However, if Java was never open sourced, he would not be in favor of it. OpenOffice was largely written in C++ because they didn't want to use Java because it wasn't open. Imagine how much more work could have been accomplished if they started with Java. Not that Java is a great, or even pretty, language. It's just a lot easier to work with than C++. Someday, we'll be able to move up another level of abstraction and writing software will again become easier. My point about Stallman was that he would keep developers in the "stone ages" rather than be practical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org#Use_of_Java http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org#Use_of_Java
    - wmf 16y ago
      OpenOffice might not be the best example since it's older than Java: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Open_Office#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Open_Office#History
    - jbm 16y ago
      "Practical"? Is that a good thing now? I don't recall "practical" being synonymous with "awesome" or "excellent". "Practical" is an excellent excuse for not having principle. I have some issues with RMS' beliefs, but I applaud the fact that he acts on principle. I wish I had embraced principle over practicality and had continued working with Ruby, rather than taking a 5 year detour through PHPland.
- incognito3 16y ago
  I'm really getting tired of the pricks that down vote people for no reason. Pieces of shit!!! One of these days I'm going to get so pissed off that I will create a script to create 1000 hacker news accounts and to automatically up vote any comments that get down voted to -4. And if you think you can block me, think again. I'll attack from many different ip addresses. See how you'll like it. I'm talking to you pieces of shit that down vote just because you have a tight ass. Why don't you go and play with your fucking dildo's assholes. By the way, this is not directed at you melling, I hope that is clear. But rather at the assholes that down voted you just because they have a tight ass.
- hendler 16y ago
  I think you were downvoted because you miss the point. Apache's stand is against Oracle, not Java, and Stallman's issues with Java were with licensing not the language/JVM really. Stallman is a leader not because he must create something better than Java, but instead because for any technology the "Free" vs. "Open Source" issue can be critical as to whether you depend on a piece of software.
- killedbydeath 16y ago
  In my experience, a combination of Python and C/C++, Lua/C++, or even just plain C++ with a good library like Qt offer better performance and productivity. And Open Office is not a good example, desktop applications are definitely not Java's strength, there are hardly any examples. Java is more dominant than in the "enterprise"/web space.
- eru 16y ago
  MIT had an emacs-like editor written in Scheme. (I can't remember its name. Probably it was the editor written for MIT Scheme?) Edit: It's Edwin.
- uriel 16y ago
  Java is the new COBOL, how anyone could think it is a good idea to write anything in it is beyond me.
ciupicri 16y ago
I wonder what he thinks of .NET and Mono right now.
- warp 16y ago
  http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono (short version: "we should discourage people from writing programs in C#")
  - ciupicri 16y ago
    That's 3 months old, before these Java related scandals.

Lead, follow or get out of the way. Stallman hasn't offered a better solution than Java. Java is a better choice than C or C++. Developers are simply more productive in Java. Python, Ruby, etc don't currently offer nearly the level of performance. I'm still waiting for the version of Emacs that's written entirely in Scheme. [edit] Funny, I got voted down. Hope you guys will volunteer to rip out the Java from Open Office and rewrite it in C++.

wmf 16y ago
I think RMS is now pro-Java since OpenJDK came out. Harmony is a tool of capitalist oppression anyway.
- melling 16y ago
  Stallman has his ideals, which is fine. However, if Java was never open sourced, he would not be in favor of it. OpenOffice was largely written in C++ because they didn't want to use Java because it wasn't open. Imagine how much more work could have been accomplished if they started with Java. Not that Java is a great, or even pretty, language. It's just a lot easier to work with than C++. Someday, we'll be able to move up another level of abstraction and writing software will again become easier. My point about Stallman was that he would keep developers in the "stone ages" rather than be practical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org#Use_of_Java http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org#Use_of_Java
  - wmf 16y ago
    OpenOffice might not be the best example since it's older than Java: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Open_Office#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Open_Office#History
  - jbm 16y ago
    "Practical"? Is that a good thing now? I don't recall "practical" being synonymous with "awesome" or "excellent". "Practical" is an excellent excuse for not having principle. I have some issues with RMS' beliefs, but I applaud the fact that he acts on principle. I wish I had embraced principle over practicality and had continued working with Ruby, rather than taking a 5 year detour through PHPland.
incognito3 16y ago
I'm really getting tired of the pricks that down vote people for no reason. Pieces of shit!!! One of these days I'm going to get so pissed off that I will create a script to create 1000 hacker news accounts and to automatically up vote any comments that get down voted to -4. And if you think you can block me, think again. I'll attack from many different ip addresses. See how you'll like it. I'm talking to you pieces of shit that down vote just because you have a tight ass. Why don't you go and play with your fucking dildo's assholes. By the way, this is not directed at you melling, I hope that is clear. But rather at the assholes that down voted you just because they have a tight ass.
hendler 16y ago
I think you were downvoted because you miss the point. Apache's stand is against Oracle, not Java, and Stallman's issues with Java were with licensing not the language/JVM really. Stallman is a leader not because he must create something better than Java, but instead because for any technology the "Free" vs. "Open Source" issue can be critical as to whether you depend on a piece of software.
killedbydeath 16y ago
In my experience, a combination of Python and C/C++, Lua/C++, or even just plain C++ with a good library like Qt offer better performance and productivity. And Open Office is not a good example, desktop applications are definitely not Java's strength, there are hardly any examples. Java is more dominant than in the "enterprise"/web space.
eru 16y ago
MIT had an emacs-like editor written in Scheme. (I can't remember its name. Probably it was the editor written for MIT Scheme?) Edit: It's Edwin.
uriel 16y ago
Java is the new COBOL, how anyone could think it is a good idea to write anything in it is beyond me.

ciupicri 16y ago

I wonder what he thinks of .NET and Mono right now.

warp 16y ago
http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono (short version: "we should discourage people from writing programs in C#")
- ciupicri 16y ago
  That's 3 months old, before these Java related scandals.