5 ms·

I don't have a physical address (I move approximately every 3 weeks). I don't have a phone number (I move country every 3 weeks and need a new SIM each time).

I don't have a physical address (I move approximately every 3 weeks). I don't have a phone number (I move country every 3 weeks and need a new SIM each time). I have so many problems with online authentication it's not funny. So yeah, I'd love a global system of identification, but please let's not tie it to an address or phone number

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Passport number along with cryptographic authentication similar to Estonia’s ID card. I believe this satisfies the need for authentication of all citizens at a global scope.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Not everyone has passports let alone valid ones. And getting one for people can be difficult as many people especially older ones don't have supporting documentation e.g. birth certificates and so can't prove identity.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    You can’t function as a citizen of a country without identity documents. Passport national ID cards, in my opinion, the optimal solution to the problem. Issuance can be streamlined, and cost can be absorbed for those who can’t afford it. Society requires foundations.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > You can’t function as a citizen of a country without identity documents. Sure you can. Identity documents exist more to prevent (the “wrong") people from functioning as citizens than to enable people to do so.
      - tooop 8y ago
        If you look young, how can you even buy alcohol or cigarettes (in my countries case even energy drinks) or get in a club? In my country each citizen must have an identity document - either a passport or ID card (drivers license doesn't count). I can't see it any other way as you need to ID yourself in stores (in the mentioned case if you look young and want to buy alcohol/cigarettes/energy drink), post office when receiving package, getting drivers licence, opening bank account, getting loans etc.
        AnthonyMouse 8y ago
        > If you look young, how can you even buy alcohol or cigarettes (in my countries case even energy drinks) or get in a club? It is possible to go your entire life without ever doing any of those things, or having any desire to. And as a general rule, it's the people who are of legal age who least care to do them. Also, some countries don't have age restrictions on such things to begin with (or don't enforce them at all). > post office when receiving package Who goes to the post office to receive a package? They come to you, and are then satisfied by the fact that they delivered the package to the address on the label. > getting drivers licence This a major reason why this is pointless. If you're going to have an ID, how do you identify yourself to get the ID? It's fully circular. You can't prove who you are unless you can already prove who you are, in which case you already have an ID. In the US a large percentage of the population don't have passports. When you get a driver's license, they nominally ask you for some other ID, most of which (e.g. birth certificates or company/school IDs they have no way to authenticate) are trivially forged and useless at proving the person is who they say. Because it has to be that way -- you can't make having an ID a condition of getting an ID. The whole idea is silly. Identity is context. If you create an email address with Google, you set a password. Then Google knows you're the person that email address belongs to because you're the one with the password. Your government "identity" has nothing to do with it, nor should it. > opening bank account The only reason banks care about this is that the government requires them to. Otherwise they would be completely satisfied to give you a numbered account with no person's name attached and simply put a hold on your deposits until after they've cleared, as they do for most anyone regardless. > getting loans etc. To get a loan what they care about is whether you're creditworthy, not what your name is. Prove that you have a job and a history of paying back debts, or post some collateral, that's what they want. One system by which they automate this is to have credit reporting agencies that aggregate this information and associate it with your name, but there is no inherent reason it has to be done that way -- and some good reasons not to. See Equifax data breach.
  - SiempreViernes 8y ago
    Several millions don't even have citizenship.
- logifail 8y ago
  Except: when you renew a passport, don't you get a new passport number?
  - daurnimator 8y ago
    why is that a problem? a well oiled practice for revocation in case of compromise sounds like a good thing to me.
s17n 8y ago
Tying to a physical location actual serves an important function in that it introduces an asymmetry between you and a potential attacker / identity thief - it's much cheaper for you to physically show up at your local courthouse to contest something than it is for an attacker to fly in. Any suggestions for how to solve this?
- s17n 8y ago
  By "solve" I mean come up with another similar asymmetry which doesn't depend on your physical location being constant.
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    I dunno, that kind of starts with the assumption that people live at one address, in one country. This is what I'm pointing out: that assumption is not true. I accept that I'm an edge case, but a large minority of (for example) Australians have dual nationality, and will have lived in either of the countries that they're citizens of for long periods of time. Some haven't settled on one yet, and skip back and forth every few months/years. All of them (us) have stories of identity systems, bureaucracy and banks not understanding that they moved country. You're asking for a replacement asymmetry when the thing you're replacing in the first place isn't actually useful. But, to answer the question: email is the one thing I'm pretty sure that I and I alone can get to. I have two email addresses, from different providers, using 2FA (google Authenticator on my phone). The 2FA bit is probably enough asymmetry. However, even that, I could lose: if I fall into a swimming pool while carrying my backpack and phone, I'd have a hard time proving who I am to anyone until I got everything back up and running. Even worse, if I fell into a swimming pool while moving accommodation I'd have my passports in my backpack... not a comforting thought at all.
vidarh 8y ago
Get a phone that supports dual sims (almost every Chinese phone), or a cheap second phone, and keep one for auth uses.
- efreak 8y ago
  But then you (usually) lose sdcard support because manufacturer too cheap to give you a dedicated sdcard slot.
  - vidarh 8y ago
    I don't recall that having been an issue with the phones I've had, but I guess it must be an issue, as doing a search for "dual sim" on Aliexpress now brings up a ton of adapters to let you use both dual sim and a sdcard at the same time... (though I can't say I'd like to have one hanging out of the side of my phone...

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Passport number along with cryptographic authentication similar to Estonia’s ID card. I believe this satisfies the need for authentication of all citizens at a global scope.

threeseed 8y ago
Not everyone has passports let alone valid ones. And getting one for people can be difficult as many people especially older ones don't have supporting documentation e.g. birth certificates and so can't prove identity.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  You can’t function as a citizen of a country without identity documents. Passport national ID cards, in my opinion, the optimal solution to the problem. Issuance can be streamlined, and cost can be absorbed for those who can’t afford it. Society requires foundations.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > You can’t function as a citizen of a country without identity documents. Sure you can. Identity documents exist more to prevent (the “wrong") people from functioning as citizens than to enable people to do so.
    - tooop 8y ago
      If you look young, how can you even buy alcohol or cigarettes (in my countries case even energy drinks) or get in a club? In my country each citizen must have an identity document - either a passport or ID card (drivers license doesn't count). I can't see it any other way as you need to ID yourself in stores (in the mentioned case if you look young and want to buy alcohol/cigarettes/energy drink), post office when receiving package, getting drivers licence, opening bank account, getting loans etc.
      - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
        > If you look young, how can you even buy alcohol or cigarettes (in my countries case even energy drinks) or get in a club? It is possible to go your entire life without ever doing any of those things, or having any desire to. And as a general rule, it's the people who are of legal age who least care to do them. Also, some countries don't have age restrictions on such things to begin with (or don't enforce them at all). > post office when receiving package Who goes to the post office to receive a package? They come to you, and are then satisfied by the fact that they delivered the package to the address on the label. > getting drivers licence This a major reason why this is pointless. If you're going to have an ID, how do you identify yourself to get the ID? It's fully circular. You can't prove who you are unless you can already prove who you are, in which case you already have an ID. In the US a large percentage of the population don't have passports. When you get a driver's license, they nominally ask you for some other ID, most of which (e.g. birth certificates or company/school IDs they have no way to authenticate) are trivially forged and useless at proving the person is who they say. Because it has to be that way -- you can't make having an ID a condition of getting an ID. The whole idea is silly. Identity is context. If you create an email address with Google, you set a password. Then Google knows you're the person that email address belongs to because you're the one with the password. Your government "identity" has nothing to do with it, nor should it. > opening bank account The only reason banks care about this is that the government requires them to. Otherwise they would be completely satisfied to give you a numbered account with no person's name attached and simply put a hold on your deposits until after they've cleared, as they do for most anyone regardless. > getting loans etc. To get a loan what they care about is whether you're creditworthy, not what your name is. Prove that you have a job and a history of paying back debts, or post some collateral, that's what they want. One system by which they automate this is to have credit reporting agencies that aggregate this information and associate it with your name, but there is no inherent reason it has to be done that way -- and some good reasons not to. See Equifax data breach.
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  Several millions don't even have citizenship.
logifail 8y ago
Except: when you renew a passport, don't you get a new passport number?
- daurnimator 8y ago
  why is that a problem? a well oiled practice for revocation in case of compromise sounds like a good thing to me.

s17n 8y ago

Tying to a physical location actual serves an important function in that it introduces an asymmetry between you and a potential attacker / identity thief - it's much cheaper for you to physically show up at your local courthouse to contest something than it is for an attacker to fly in. Any suggestions for how to solve this?

s17n 8y ago
By "solve" I mean come up with another similar asymmetry which doesn't depend on your physical location being constant.
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  I dunno, that kind of starts with the assumption that people live at one address, in one country. This is what I'm pointing out: that assumption is not true. I accept that I'm an edge case, but a large minority of (for example) Australians have dual nationality, and will have lived in either of the countries that they're citizens of for long periods of time. Some haven't settled on one yet, and skip back and forth every few months/years. All of them (us) have stories of identity systems, bureaucracy and banks not understanding that they moved country. You're asking for a replacement asymmetry when the thing you're replacing in the first place isn't actually useful. But, to answer the question: email is the one thing I'm pretty sure that I and I alone can get to. I have two email addresses, from different providers, using 2FA (google Authenticator on my phone). The 2FA bit is probably enough asymmetry. However, even that, I could lose: if I fall into a swimming pool while carrying my backpack and phone, I'd have a hard time proving who I am to anyone until I got everything back up and running. Even worse, if I fell into a swimming pool while moving accommodation I'd have my passports in my backpack... not a comforting thought at all.

vidarh 8y ago

Get a phone that supports dual sims (almost every Chinese phone), or a cheap second phone, and keep one for auth uses.

efreak 8y ago
But then you (usually) lose sdcard support because manufacturer too cheap to give you a dedicated sdcard slot.
- vidarh 8y ago
  I don't recall that having been an issue with the phones I've had, but I guess it must be an issue, as doing a search for "dual sim" on Aliexpress now brings up a ton of adapters to let you use both dual sim and a sdcard at the same time... (though I can't say I'd like to have one hanging out of the side of my phone...