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Almond milk is my bugbear. Comparing the land and water use of cows versus almonds is ridiculous for many many reasons. If you've been to a cattle ranch (not

Almond milk is my bugbear. Comparing the land and water use of cows versus almonds is ridiculous for many many reasons. If you've been to a cattle ranch (not a CAFO) and to an almond farm, you'll know exactly what I mean. Almond land use is land use: it's barren of all life besides almond trees. Ranch land in comparison is typically semi-arable, has living things other than cows on it, and while cows sequester water (like all other living animals), the notion that they use more water because rainfall catchment on ranch land isn't absolute is a collossal error in thinking. Also note that calories per 200ml aren't shown, which is really where the math breaks down. Whole milk has 160 calories per 8oz glass. Unsweetened almond milk has 40 per 8oz glass. Soy milk, the most calorie dense of out all of them, which is totally reliant upon monoculture, pesticides, and artificial fertilizers only has 80. So, you know, multiply the vegan options, or divide the cow milk appropriately. There are fantastic naturally vegan foods (including whole almonds and whole soybeans). Investigate those before indulging in ersatz environmental sleights-of-hand. There are also tenable reasons to be vegan (or at the very least to reduce animal product consumption). Arguing that lifestyle identity products are sustainable isn't one of them. Final positive note: oats and oatmilk are fantastic. You can make it yourself, then cook the sludge for porridge. Oats grow on marginal semi-arable soil and their husks are useful. Eat more oats.

clomond 8y ago
You make lots of very good points. However, I think a glaring assumption you are making with cows is that all milk in the world is fully ranch raised. From my understanding, the vast majority of the world’s “commodity soy” you describe is actually fed to cattle/other animals for either beef or milk production. Often, at least what I have seen is that soy milk in super markets is labeled “organic”/non-GMO which directly implies that it is a different breed of soy, separate from the commodity soy used as feed. When factoring that only a portion of the worlds milk is fully “ranch raised” - there is strength in the case for soy milk over cows milk.
bargl 8y ago
I really don't like arguments that lose nuance. I appreciate you bringing and pointing out some here. The study most people quote has a huge variation in CO2 based on farming practices. It also doesn't compare eating seasonally appropriate foods vs out of season foods. I think it's an over simplification of a problem to push an agenda. Edit: I was trying to hold it in, but I couldn't so here's the rant. For that matter, we really need to pull out our CO2 calculators and add up kids, dogs, cars, insulation, houses, etc. Let's see what your CO2 budget can be. I get that we need to work toward reducing CO2 footprint, but how many of us are willing to tell others they should cut the way WE want them to cut rather than giving them options. The Vegan agenda is 2 fold. If you eat meat, your bad for eating animals and now for not believing in global warming enough. No, I believe in global warming, I just prefer to take a bus and try to eat humanely grown meat that has a lower impact. But that's me, and if you go vegan and decide you don't want to ride the bus, that's ok. Do what you can.
- uxcolumbo 8y ago
  What is your definition of humanely grown meat? And secondly how do you ensure it meets your criteria and where do you get it?
  - bargl 8y ago
    Good question. http://lostinecattlecompany.com/lostine-beef/our-philosophy/ http://lostinecattlecompany.com/lostine-beef/our-philosophy/ Find a bunch of people and get a half cow. No not all my meat comes from here, but this is what I look for when I can.
    - uxcolumbo 8y ago
      Thanks - had a look at their page. I find it a bit strange that they use the word 'harvested'. They mention it's stress free. Why not just use the actual words, like killing and slaughtering. Are they afraid it's going to turn people off? Animals can feel when they are about to die and this alone creates stress - so this whole process is certainly not stress free. I don't think you can kill a living being (e.g. cows or pigs) that doesn't want to be killed - in a humane way. We have to face the fact that our demand for meat creates animal suffering and when it comes to factory farming also environmental destruction and poor working conditions for other humans. We then have to ask ourselves why are we eating meat - for survival or for pleasure? In modern socities it's mostly for pleasure - which then becomes a moral question, i.e. does my demand for meat justify all the things mentioned above? Also, when you look up the definition of 'humane' it includes the words 'compassion' and 'act of kindness'. Mixing those words with killing and slaughtering (when it's not necessary for ones survival) somehow doesn't go well together. But making an effort to only purchase meat from those farms you mentioned is still better than purchasing meat that comes from factory farms.
IronWolve 8y ago
Never heard of oat milk, but appears even unsweetened oat milk has too many carbs. My favorite is unsweetened almond/coconut milk for low carb and good taste. But for coffee creamer, I think whipping cream tastes better. I use low carb keto coffee creamer in powder form, for ease of use.

clomond 8y ago

You make lots of very good points. However, I think a glaring assumption you are making with cows is that all milk in the world is fully ranch raised. From my understanding, the vast majority of the world’s “commodity soy” you describe is actually fed to cattle/other animals for either beef or milk production. Often, at least what I have seen is that soy milk in super markets is labeled “organic”/non-GMO which directly implies that it is a different breed of soy, separate from the commodity soy used as feed. When factoring that only a portion of the worlds milk is fully “ranch raised” - there is strength in the case for soy milk over cows milk.

bargl 8y ago

I really don't like arguments that lose nuance. I appreciate you bringing and pointing out some here. The study most people quote has a huge variation in CO2 based on farming practices. It also doesn't compare eating seasonally appropriate foods vs out of season foods. I think it's an over simplification of a problem to push an agenda. Edit: I was trying to hold it in, but I couldn't so here's the rant. For that matter, we really need to pull out our CO2 calculators and add up kids, dogs, cars, insulation, houses, etc. Let's see what your CO2 budget can be. I get that we need to work toward reducing CO2 footprint, but how many of us are willing to tell others they should cut the way WE want them to cut rather than giving them options. The Vegan agenda is 2 fold. If you eat meat, your bad for eating animals and now for not believing in global warming enough. No, I believe in global warming, I just prefer to take a bus and try to eat humanely grown meat that has a lower impact. But that's me, and if you go vegan and decide you don't want to ride the bus, that's ok. Do what you can.

uxcolumbo 8y ago
What is your definition of humanely grown meat? And secondly how do you ensure it meets your criteria and where do you get it?
- bargl 8y ago
  Good question. http://lostinecattlecompany.com/lostine-beef/our-philosophy/ http://lostinecattlecompany.com/lostine-beef/our-philosophy/ Find a bunch of people and get a half cow. No not all my meat comes from here, but this is what I look for when I can.
  - uxcolumbo 8y ago
    Thanks - had a look at their page. I find it a bit strange that they use the word 'harvested'. They mention it's stress free. Why not just use the actual words, like killing and slaughtering. Are they afraid it's going to turn people off? Animals can feel when they are about to die and this alone creates stress - so this whole process is certainly not stress free. I don't think you can kill a living being (e.g. cows or pigs) that doesn't want to be killed - in a humane way. We have to face the fact that our demand for meat creates animal suffering and when it comes to factory farming also environmental destruction and poor working conditions for other humans. We then have to ask ourselves why are we eating meat - for survival or for pleasure? In modern socities it's mostly for pleasure - which then becomes a moral question, i.e. does my demand for meat justify all the things mentioned above? Also, when you look up the definition of 'humane' it includes the words 'compassion' and 'act of kindness'. Mixing those words with killing and slaughtering (when it's not necessary for ones survival) somehow doesn't go well together. But making an effort to only purchase meat from those farms you mentioned is still better than purchasing meat that comes from factory farms.

IronWolve 8y ago

Never heard of oat milk, but appears even unsweetened oat milk has too many carbs. My favorite is unsweetened almond/coconut milk for low carb and good taste. But for coffee creamer, I think whipping cream tastes better. I use low carb keto coffee creamer in powder form, for ease of use.