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The lede here is somewhat burried: "From what I’ve since learned, if a card in your Google Pay is stolen, or someone uses your Payments account fraudulently, o

The lede here is somewhat burried: "From what I’ve since learned, if a card in your Google Pay is stolen, or someone uses your Payments account fraudulently, or anything happens that leads to a security flag being raised, it can lead to your Google Payments account being frozen. ... If you can’t use Google Payments, you can’t pay for Google Fi This, fundamentally, is why I can’t suggest anyone use Project Fi anymore. ... Getting this fixed is actually impossible, and I say that as someone who really, truly, loves solving problems and has made a living off getting phone agents to want to help me. We have submitted copies of his ID four times, my ID twice, multiple photos of credit cards, and various credit card statements. We’ve talked to agents and supervisors at Google Payments and Google Fi. No one is empowered to do anything, and even a well-intentioned agent doesn’t get the same answer from the “security department” twice. I’ve since found hundreds of comments and Reddit threads from people having similar experiences, with almost zero positive conclusions. The only suggestion of a solution we’ve been given is that he abandon both his email address and phone number of the past twenty years and start fresh."

ronsor 8y ago
This is a general issue with google. If their system decides it doesn't like you, then you're out of luck. You'll never get them to fix it.
- zenexer 8y ago
  I recently had nearly the same exact problem with Microsoft. Security department is a black box—zero communication. A friend working for Microsoft even escalated my case internally at the time, but nobody could do or see anything. My account was eventually unfrozen without so much as an email to notify me, never mind an explanation. The point is, this issue isn’t limited to Google.
  - jlarocco 8y ago
    Wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft saw how much money Google saves by not having support, and decided to follow their lead. They used to have decent support.
    - magduf 8y ago
      With Microsoft, it makes good sense for them to not have any support. They can save a lot of money that way, and there's simply no downside. Does it anger customers? Sure, but who cares? It's not like the customers are going to abandon Microsoft. With Google, there is at least a chance they could move to the Apple ecosystem.
      - woolvalley 8y ago
        Why wouldn't I abandon MSFT? There is google docs, chromebooks and mac os already. Only a small power user use case needs to stick with office specifically nowadays.
        jessaustin 8y ago
        Lots of people already abandoned them years ago. It might be the sort of thing that isn't a problem... up until the moment the firm goes out of business.
        dabockster 8y ago
        Last I checked, Windows is still the OS of choice for consumers, businesses, the space station (check the recent HN post and zoom in on one of the ThinkPads), etc. So MSFT still has a good chokehold on modern computing.
        eitland 8y ago
        > So MSFT still has a good chokehold on modern computing. Many of us breathe quite freely (at work we're free to us any OS as long we don't bother IT.) It has like this for a little more than half of of my 10 last years (notable exceptions: 3.5 years as sysadmin on old system running Windows, 4 months consulting and 3 months with a boss who demanded everything ran Linux.) Oh: and almost everyone demands we host on Linux or on cloud.
        magduf 8y ago
  - mattynice 8y ago
    The difference is Microsoft doesn't provide you with your phone service do they? I think this highlights the dangers of bundling all of your services through a single point of failure. Something Google probably is the most known for.
  - desireco42 8y ago
    My experience with Microsoft is very positive one. I had issue once with Windows on my old gaming machine. I called them, regular support couldn't help me, but they scheduled call with their dev center or something. I got to talk with very knowledgable lady, who not only directed me what to do to resolve problem, but also explained well what was the issue and all made perfect sense. I was genuinely impressed. I think this was because my issue was not trivial and I got to talk with developers.
    - eitland 8y ago
      I had a problem with an old USD10 purhase through their Windows store. They called me back and sorted the problem the same afternoon. Was genuinely impressed, haven't seen anything like that since IBM PC support in the 90ties.
- NorthOf33rd 8y ago
  Yep. a few years ago I signed up for a promo where if I spent a certain amount in the app store, I'd get a free chromecast. Never got it. No recourse available. At all. It's really strange that this level of "service" is acceptable.
  - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
    >No recourse available. You can sue Google in small claims court for the value of the undelivered Chromecast and for the court fees you spent on suing them.
    - IOT_Apprentice 8y ago
      someone should take that do not pay bot that fights traffic tickets and apply it to suing Google et al over these issues. https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/12/15960080/chatbot-ai-legal-donotpay-us-uk https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/12/15960080/chatbot-ai-legal...
    - ronsor 8y ago
      but it's generally not worth your time or money to do so
      - tracker1 8y ago
        But it'd be interesting to see a LOT more small-claims court suits... a million paper cuts to bring some humility and service to the beast.
        rchaud 8y ago
        This won't happen, because Congress has done its best to try to limit action against corporations by trying to define everything under the sun as 'frivolous lawsuits that are clogging up our courts'.
      - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
        True. The demand letter you write prior to filing a lawsuit will usually be enough, though. At some point someone runs the calculation between giving you what you want and fighting a lawsuit in small claims, and decides to give you things instead.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- duxup 8y ago
  It turns out it didn't take computer AI "taking over" to just arbitrarily decide you're out, or wrong, or whatever with no recourse. A company of humans have decided that's ok.
  - jonsen 8y ago
    No single human says this is ok. There is no human consensus this is ok. This is a form of non-human intelligence taking over.
    - clairity 8y ago
      it's not an "intelligence" so much as emergent properties of systems. there are fields like system dynamics and macroeconomics that study such things.
      - waqf 8y ago
        Yes — but all "intelligence" is an emergent property of systems. And because the system in this instance is not a human brain, it's non-human intelligence.
        ghazak 8y ago
        It’s not really intelligence, so much as selection pressure in the direction of high margin. Evolution isn’t “intelligence” either, but still leads to interesting or highly honed solutions to problems.
        istjohn 8y ago
        It's certainly not selection pressure. Google's systems did not evolve because similar companies out-competed and reproduced more effeciently than dissimilar companies. The metaphor doesn't work at all.
        ghazak 8y ago
- chooseaname 8y ago
  > You'll never get them to fix it. I honestly don't think they know how. What I mean is, this just hasn't ever been a concern for them because their services were free so they don't have a history of customer service.
- ploxiln 8y ago
  This is also a problem with Square, and Stripe, and Paypal ... it's an unsolvable fraud/scammer problem. Basically, if there was customer support that could fix the problem, then skilled scammers can get money and control out of them. They can do it a lot better than you can get your stuff re-enabled, they know just when to say what to whom. Verizon just accepts the inefficiency, and also over-charges random customers, sometimes hands over control of a phone number to a scammer so they can get auth codes over SMS, has clueless support, etc. Google hasn't accepted this way of the world yet (but in scaling up the support has necessarily become disempowered). It is very frustrating. It's a nature of things going mass-market. Just a few people, everything can be nice. Too many people, scams and fraud become big problems.
  - wyldfire 8y ago
    > This is also a problem with Square, and Stripe, and Paypal ... it's an unsolvable fraud/scammer problem. It's compounded by the fact that Google has the primary element of your 21st century identity: your email address.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      I recommend anyone who likes Gmail to use your own domain name@example.com and just forward all messages to your Gmail address. Only give out your own example.com email and set it as the reply to. Even the cheap budget registrars offer email forwarding for free and I have never had any trouble. This gives you the benefits of free Gmail without handing your entire life over to them. At least with a tld there is some due process and rules to protect you.
      - neetdeth 8y ago
        Are there actually rules and due process? I was under the impression that it's just a convention that the registrar won't seize your domain unless they really, really dislike you. edit: I shouldn't be oblique in my comments. I'm of course referring to the whole Daily Stormer fiasco.
- MrZongle2 8y ago
  "You'll never get them to fix it." And, quite honestly, why would they at this point? They have millions of other customers they can ignore, that are still paying. Where are they going to complain? And how would other users in the same boat find such complaints? It's certainly not right, but there's no strong incentive for Google to change how they're doing business right now.
- zaarn 8y ago
  You can get them to fix it in 1 simple step: 1. Stir up enough shit on social media that some higher up at Google basically does ''sudo fix-problem <customer>''. Of course, then google apologizes and promises to fix things for everyone else but they don't.
- droidist2 8y ago
  >If their system decides it doesn't like you, then you're out of luck. You'll never get them to fix it. Exactly right. The only way to get them to even look at it is to have a friend who works at Google or have tons of Twitter followers and pressure them by tweeting the story.
deburo 8y ago
Well, that's pretty damning. I hope this gets an answer from some Googler now that's it's out in the media.
- vvanders 8y ago
  No, that shouldn't not be the support path to escalation because you know someone well connected at Google and/or cause an outrage. It's not that hard, invest in customer service, understand that not everything can be handled by an algorithm and you won't have these classes of issues. Is it expensive? Sure. At some point though you're going to need some system that allows human intervention when things have gone off the rails.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  I think the whole crux of the issue is that any one Googler wouldn't have enough oversight to answer. Google is too complex of an organization, and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. So issues become lost between CS, security, and accounting. I've seen this from the other side. I've also seen it get mitigated by giving someone (customer service) ownership of the problem, and giving them enough organizational support to twist arms in other departments as needed.
  - bradknowles 8y ago
    Approximately 42% of the 17 million left hands are unaware that any other hands of any sort exist, much less any of the 23 million right hands. About 71% of the 17 million right hands are not aware that any other hands exist, much less the 13 million gripping hands. See the problem here?
  - jasondclinton 8y ago
    Actually, former Payments Googler here. I have a pretty good idea what could have happened. I will escalate this internally. And no, it shouldn't require a Googler to fix it; something has gone wrong.
    - Mindwipe 8y ago
pasbesoin 8y ago
Pre-Google-Fi and into Google Fi, I considered the various "un-appeal-able" account scenarios with Google products, including how they sometimes tied back to loss of access to other Google products including one's Gmail account and basically any access to the baseline Google account at all. When I signed up for my first Android phone, I created a new Gmail address for it. When I decided to give Fi a ago -- and get a discount on a Nexus 5x -- I looked at how Fi commandeered any already-connected Google Voice number -- in a one-way process, by the way -- and used a Gmail account that did not have Google Voice set up. And kept my other number active on another carrier, by the way -- I wasn't porting it. Fi can be pretty good, when it works. Google account management, on the other hand, remains a minefield of irreversible pitfalls. I might suggest to Google, that they try re-introducing some orthogonality into their accounting structures. But, I'm tired of suggesting things to Google; they've had more than enough time to get -- or buy -- a clue.
EpicBlackCrayon 8y ago
Same thing happened to me! I got it fixed by submitting a BBB complaint.
013a 8y ago
One thing I can suggest; if you're deep into google products, you should be paying the $5/month for a G-Suite account with your own domain. You get access to better business-class support. Fi is now also supported on G-Suite accounts. It's a no-brainer. It sucks that their personal account support is so bad, but there is a solution.
- 90minuteAPI 8y ago
  The parent post concerns me as I use Google Domains. Now I'm hoping that also brings me up to that level of support.
- lashkari 8y ago
  Except that many services (e.g., Family Libraries, Family Link, etc.) don't work with G Suite accounts.
- LameRubberDucky 8y ago
  I would agree with this, if you're using Google's personal free products for running a business. Get locked and you're in real trouble. But Fi is a service that the customer is paying for, they should not be subject to automatic lockouts without any way to get it resolved other than to "start fresh."
- mdp 8y ago
  This isn't much of a solution. I had a G-Suite account with them when I had an issue with Payments. I ended up with a suspended payments account all the same and no support via the G Suite support package (let's be honest, at $5 you get what you pay for). G Suite support will help you with things like problems with your email, but the Payments team is totally separate. Take a look at the support page - https://gsuite.google.com/support/ https://gsuite.google.com/support/ - it's pretty clear that they aren't going to help you clear things up outside of their specific area. Same for Google Play store as a developer; didn't matter that I had a $5 account, different department so back to robo-emails you go.
- tracker1 8y ago
  I don't generally get a response back, but more often than not, a negative tweet on twitter gets a resolution within a day or two.
will_brown 8y ago
I had a similar problem with Apple. I made an in app purchase (with a YC company nonetheless) and the company gave a limited period to cancel the service for a full refund. I cancelled the service within the deadline, and didn’t get a refund. I requested the refund from the YC company who said “they can’t” refund and I have to ask Apple. So I asked Apple for the refund included the YC company policy/purchase date/cancellation email and Apple told me I had to be refunded by the YC company. With no recourse I did a chargeback and Apple blacklisted my debit card which basically bricked my ability to use my phone. All these tech companies have their heads so far up their asses when it comes to cost cutting/customer service, it’s no wonder services like Twitter/FB serve as public shaming, complaint tools to access the otherwise inaccessible tech elite.
- lostmsu 8y ago
  It looks like in this case its the YC company in the wrong. How could they have claimed you could get a refund, and never provided you that? Even if they did not know Apple does not do it, its their claim and so is their responsibility. You could easily sue in a small claims court.
  - Sendotsh 8y ago
    It's my understanding that refunds in the app stores (and Steam, etc) are entirely a feature of the store itself, and the product/app creator hasn't got a say in it or any control over it.
    - tinus_hn 8y ago
      Which is logical as the store handles payments. The creators don’t have your financial information, how could they process a refund?
  - bduerst 8y ago
    I think the point isn't who is really to blame here, but it's that no matter what cell service or tech you use, there are situations where they will stop service because of payment disputes even if you're in the right.
efsavage 8y ago
> The only suggestion of a solution we’ve been given is that he abandon both his email address and phone number of the past twenty years and start fresh." I believe that being able to port your number is a legal requirement. It's unlikely a poorly designed billing system is a permanent exception to this.
- astura 8y ago
  Seems you have to be current on your account to port your number. They aren't, but they also are unable to use Google payments to become current.
  - notatcomputer68 8y ago
    I'm not a lawyer yada yada but it says on my dollar bill that it's legal tender for all debts, public and private.
    - walterbell 8y ago
      Show up at Google HQ security gate with cash in hand and journalist in tow?
      - dabockster 8y ago
        Forget the journalist, just live stream it via a YouTube account with a psuedonym first/last name. Considering how disorganized Google is, I doubt they'd take it down for a good while (if at all).
        walterbell 8y ago
        Paging Banksy
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
jpeeler 8y ago
A somewhat similar situation happened to me in that my Google payments account was frozen, supposely due to fraud. This caused me to be unable to buy a new project fi compatible phone or do any other payments, except... My monthly Fi bills continued to be processed as usual. I tried escalating with Fi support and filing a BBB complaint (which at least got looked at, but did not resolve my account standing). Finally, I contacted a Googler that commented here on HN and luckily they were sympathetic and fixed the issue. If I hadn't have been able to get my account in good standing and I was forced to start over with a new Google account, I would have switched to an iPhone. Sometimes I wonder if I should have switched anyway.
- akimball 8y ago
  Not an improvement.
dabockster 8y ago
> even a well-intentioned agent doesn’t get the same answer from the “security department” twice So you've gotten agents fired? Or does the security department flip flop with a different answer each time? I've thankfully never had to deal with Google support, so I'm curious about your experiences.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- monochromatic 8y ago
  Calling it support is too generous. If Google’s automated systems can’t help you, you’re entering a world of pain.
burtonator 8y ago
Google never became evil , it just became senile.
imichael 8y ago
I wonder how it really works. My first thought is to have a dedicated credit card used only to pay for my google services, kept in a drawer at home (and not uses for any other online service) and therefore unlikely (less likely?) to be used fraudulently. But I have three cards known to Google Payments. If any one of them has an issue would Google lock my account? I hope not.
yisiliu 8y ago
> The only suggestion of a solution we’ve been given is that he abandon both his email address and phone number of the past twenty years and start fresh. rofl thanks google you at least showed us you would treat everyone equally, and no exceptions even for your employees

ronsor 8y ago

This is a general issue with google. If their system decides it doesn't like you, then you're out of luck. You'll never get them to fix it.

zenexer 8y ago
I recently had nearly the same exact problem with Microsoft. Security department is a black box—zero communication. A friend working for Microsoft even escalated my case internally at the time, but nobody could do or see anything. My account was eventually unfrozen without so much as an email to notify me, never mind an explanation. The point is, this issue isn’t limited to Google.
- jlarocco 8y ago
  Wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft saw how much money Google saves by not having support, and decided to follow their lead. They used to have decent support.
  - magduf 8y ago
    With Microsoft, it makes good sense for them to not have any support. They can save a lot of money that way, and there's simply no downside. Does it anger customers? Sure, but who cares? It's not like the customers are going to abandon Microsoft. With Google, there is at least a chance they could move to the Apple ecosystem.
    - woolvalley 8y ago
      Why wouldn't I abandon MSFT? There is google docs, chromebooks and mac os already. Only a small power user use case needs to stick with office specifically nowadays.
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        Lots of people already abandoned them years ago. It might be the sort of thing that isn't a problem... up until the moment the firm goes out of business.
      - dabockster 8y ago
        Last I checked, Windows is still the OS of choice for consumers, businesses, the space station (check the recent HN post and zoom in on one of the ThinkPads), etc. So MSFT still has a good chokehold on modern computing.
        eitland 8y ago
        > So MSFT still has a good chokehold on modern computing. Many of us breathe quite freely (at work we're free to us any OS as long we don't bother IT.) It has like this for a little more than half of of my 10 last years (notable exceptions: 3.5 years as sysadmin on old system running Windows, 4 months consulting and 3 months with a boss who demanded everything ran Linux.) Oh: and almost everyone demands we host on Linux or on cloud.
        magduf 8y ago
- mattynice 8y ago
  The difference is Microsoft doesn't provide you with your phone service do they? I think this highlights the dangers of bundling all of your services through a single point of failure. Something Google probably is the most known for.
- desireco42 8y ago
  My experience with Microsoft is very positive one. I had issue once with Windows on my old gaming machine. I called them, regular support couldn't help me, but they scheduled call with their dev center or something. I got to talk with very knowledgable lady, who not only directed me what to do to resolve problem, but also explained well what was the issue and all made perfect sense. I was genuinely impressed. I think this was because my issue was not trivial and I got to talk with developers.
  - eitland 8y ago
    I had a problem with an old USD10 purhase through their Windows store. They called me back and sorted the problem the same afternoon. Was genuinely impressed, haven't seen anything like that since IBM PC support in the 90ties.
NorthOf33rd 8y ago
Yep. a few years ago I signed up for a promo where if I spent a certain amount in the app store, I'd get a free chromecast. Never got it. No recourse available. At all. It's really strange that this level of "service" is acceptable.
- ThrustVectoring 8y ago
  >No recourse available. You can sue Google in small claims court for the value of the undelivered Chromecast and for the court fees you spent on suing them.
  - IOT_Apprentice 8y ago
    someone should take that do not pay bot that fights traffic tickets and apply it to suing Google et al over these issues. https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/12/15960080/chatbot-ai-legal-donotpay-us-uk https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/12/15960080/chatbot-ai-legal...
  - ronsor 8y ago
    but it's generally not worth your time or money to do so
    - tracker1 8y ago
      But it'd be interesting to see a LOT more small-claims court suits... a million paper cuts to bring some humility and service to the beast.
      - rchaud 8y ago
        This won't happen, because Congress has done its best to try to limit action against corporations by trying to define everything under the sun as 'frivolous lawsuits that are clogging up our courts'.
    - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
      True. The demand letter you write prior to filing a lawsuit will usually be enough, though. At some point someone runs the calculation between giving you what you want and fighting a lawsuit in small claims, and decides to give you things instead.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
duxup 8y ago
It turns out it didn't take computer AI "taking over" to just arbitrarily decide you're out, or wrong, or whatever with no recourse. A company of humans have decided that's ok.
- jonsen 8y ago
  No single human says this is ok. There is no human consensus this is ok. This is a form of non-human intelligence taking over.
  - clairity 8y ago
    it's not an "intelligence" so much as emergent properties of systems. there are fields like system dynamics and macroeconomics that study such things.
    - waqf 8y ago
      Yes — but all "intelligence" is an emergent property of systems. And because the system in this instance is not a human brain, it's non-human intelligence.
      - ghazak 8y ago
        It’s not really intelligence, so much as selection pressure in the direction of high margin. Evolution isn’t “intelligence” either, but still leads to interesting or highly honed solutions to problems.
        istjohn 8y ago
        It's certainly not selection pressure. Google's systems did not evolve because similar companies out-competed and reproduced more effeciently than dissimilar companies. The metaphor doesn't work at all.
        ghazak 8y ago
chooseaname 8y ago
> You'll never get them to fix it. I honestly don't think they know how. What I mean is, this just hasn't ever been a concern for them because their services were free so they don't have a history of customer service.
ploxiln 8y ago
This is also a problem with Square, and Stripe, and Paypal ... it's an unsolvable fraud/scammer problem. Basically, if there was customer support that could fix the problem, then skilled scammers can get money and control out of them. They can do it a lot better than you can get your stuff re-enabled, they know just when to say what to whom. Verizon just accepts the inefficiency, and also over-charges random customers, sometimes hands over control of a phone number to a scammer so they can get auth codes over SMS, has clueless support, etc. Google hasn't accepted this way of the world yet (but in scaling up the support has necessarily become disempowered). It is very frustrating. It's a nature of things going mass-market. Just a few people, everything can be nice. Too many people, scams and fraud become big problems.
- wyldfire 8y ago
  > This is also a problem with Square, and Stripe, and Paypal ... it's an unsolvable fraud/scammer problem. It's compounded by the fact that Google has the primary element of your 21st century identity: your email address.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    I recommend anyone who likes Gmail to use your own domain name@example.com and just forward all messages to your Gmail address. Only give out your own example.com email and set it as the reply to. Even the cheap budget registrars offer email forwarding for free and I have never had any trouble. This gives you the benefits of free Gmail without handing your entire life over to them. At least with a tld there is some due process and rules to protect you.
    - neetdeth 8y ago
      Are there actually rules and due process? I was under the impression that it's just a convention that the registrar won't seize your domain unless they really, really dislike you. edit: I shouldn't be oblique in my comments. I'm of course referring to the whole Daily Stormer fiasco.
MrZongle2 8y ago
"You'll never get them to fix it." And, quite honestly, why would they at this point? They have millions of other customers they can ignore, that are still paying. Where are they going to complain? And how would other users in the same boat find such complaints? It's certainly not right, but there's no strong incentive for Google to change how they're doing business right now.
zaarn 8y ago
You can get them to fix it in 1 simple step: 1. Stir up enough shit on social media that some higher up at Google basically does ''sudo fix-problem <customer>''. Of course, then google apologizes and promises to fix things for everyone else but they don't.
droidist2 8y ago
>If their system decides it doesn't like you, then you're out of luck. You'll never get them to fix it. Exactly right. The only way to get them to even look at it is to have a friend who works at Google or have tons of Twitter followers and pressure them by tweeting the story.

deburo 8y ago

Well, that's pretty damning. I hope this gets an answer from some Googler now that's it's out in the media.

vvanders 8y ago
No, that shouldn't not be the support path to escalation because you know someone well connected at Google and/or cause an outrage. It's not that hard, invest in customer service, understand that not everything can be handled by an algorithm and you won't have these classes of issues. Is it expensive? Sure. At some point though you're going to need some system that allows human intervention when things have gone off the rails.
Someone1234 8y ago
I think the whole crux of the issue is that any one Googler wouldn't have enough oversight to answer. Google is too complex of an organization, and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. So issues become lost between CS, security, and accounting. I've seen this from the other side. I've also seen it get mitigated by giving someone (customer service) ownership of the problem, and giving them enough organizational support to twist arms in other departments as needed.
- bradknowles 8y ago
  Approximately 42% of the 17 million left hands are unaware that any other hands of any sort exist, much less any of the 23 million right hands. About 71% of the 17 million right hands are not aware that any other hands exist, much less the 13 million gripping hands. See the problem here?
- jasondclinton 8y ago
  Actually, former Payments Googler here. I have a pretty good idea what could have happened. I will escalate this internally. And no, it shouldn't require a Googler to fix it; something has gone wrong.
  - Mindwipe 8y ago

pasbesoin 8y ago

Pre-Google-Fi and into Google Fi, I considered the various "un-appeal-able" account scenarios with Google products, including how they sometimes tied back to loss of access to other Google products including one's Gmail account and basically any access to the baseline Google account at all. When I signed up for my first Android phone, I created a new Gmail address for it. When I decided to give Fi a ago -- and get a discount on a Nexus 5x -- I looked at how Fi commandeered any already-connected Google Voice number -- in a one-way process, by the way -- and used a Gmail account that did not have Google Voice set up. And kept my other number active on another carrier, by the way -- I wasn't porting it. Fi can be pretty good, when it works. Google account management, on the other hand, remains a minefield of irreversible pitfalls. I might suggest to Google, that they try re-introducing some orthogonality into their accounting structures. But, I'm tired of suggesting things to Google; they've had more than enough time to get -- or buy -- a clue.

EpicBlackCrayon 8y ago

Same thing happened to me! I got it fixed by submitting a BBB complaint.

013a 8y ago

One thing I can suggest; if you're deep into google products, you should be paying the $5/month for a G-Suite account with your own domain. You get access to better business-class support. Fi is now also supported on G-Suite accounts. It's a no-brainer. It sucks that their personal account support is so bad, but there is a solution.

90minuteAPI 8y ago
The parent post concerns me as I use Google Domains. Now I'm hoping that also brings me up to that level of support.
lashkari 8y ago
Except that many services (e.g., Family Libraries, Family Link, etc.) don't work with G Suite accounts.
LameRubberDucky 8y ago
I would agree with this, if you're using Google's personal free products for running a business. Get locked and you're in real trouble. But Fi is a service that the customer is paying for, they should not be subject to automatic lockouts without any way to get it resolved other than to "start fresh."
mdp 8y ago
This isn't much of a solution. I had a G-Suite account with them when I had an issue with Payments. I ended up with a suspended payments account all the same and no support via the G Suite support package (let's be honest, at $5 you get what you pay for). G Suite support will help you with things like problems with your email, but the Payments team is totally separate. Take a look at the support page - https://gsuite.google.com/support/ https://gsuite.google.com/support/ - it's pretty clear that they aren't going to help you clear things up outside of their specific area. Same for Google Play store as a developer; didn't matter that I had a $5 account, different department so back to robo-emails you go.
tracker1 8y ago
I don't generally get a response back, but more often than not, a negative tweet on twitter gets a resolution within a day or two.

will_brown 8y ago

I had a similar problem with Apple. I made an in app purchase (with a YC company nonetheless) and the company gave a limited period to cancel the service for a full refund. I cancelled the service within the deadline, and didn’t get a refund. I requested the refund from the YC company who said “they can’t” refund and I have to ask Apple. So I asked Apple for the refund included the YC company policy/purchase date/cancellation email and Apple told me I had to be refunded by the YC company. With no recourse I did a chargeback and Apple blacklisted my debit card which basically bricked my ability to use my phone. All these tech companies have their heads so far up their asses when it comes to cost cutting/customer service, it’s no wonder services like Twitter/FB serve as public shaming, complaint tools to access the otherwise inaccessible tech elite.

lostmsu 8y ago
It looks like in this case its the YC company in the wrong. How could they have claimed you could get a refund, and never provided you that? Even if they did not know Apple does not do it, its their claim and so is their responsibility. You could easily sue in a small claims court.
- Sendotsh 8y ago
  It's my understanding that refunds in the app stores (and Steam, etc) are entirely a feature of the store itself, and the product/app creator hasn't got a say in it or any control over it.
  - tinus_hn 8y ago
    Which is logical as the store handles payments. The creators don’t have your financial information, how could they process a refund?
- bduerst 8y ago
  I think the point isn't who is really to blame here, but it's that no matter what cell service or tech you use, there are situations where they will stop service because of payment disputes even if you're in the right.

efsavage 8y ago

> The only suggestion of a solution we’ve been given is that he abandon both his email address and phone number of the past twenty years and start fresh." I believe that being able to port your number is a legal requirement. It's unlikely a poorly designed billing system is a permanent exception to this.

astura 8y ago
Seems you have to be current on your account to port your number. They aren't, but they also are unable to use Google payments to become current.
- notatcomputer68 8y ago
  I'm not a lawyer yada yada but it says on my dollar bill that it's legal tender for all debts, public and private.
  - walterbell 8y ago
    Show up at Google HQ security gate with cash in hand and journalist in tow?
    - dabockster 8y ago
      Forget the journalist, just live stream it via a YouTube account with a psuedonym first/last name. Considering how disorganized Google is, I doubt they'd take it down for a good while (if at all).
      - walterbell 8y ago
        Paging Banksy
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago

jpeeler 8y ago

A somewhat similar situation happened to me in that my Google payments account was frozen, supposely due to fraud. This caused me to be unable to buy a new project fi compatible phone or do any other payments, except... My monthly Fi bills continued to be processed as usual. I tried escalating with Fi support and filing a BBB complaint (which at least got looked at, but did not resolve my account standing). Finally, I contacted a Googler that commented here on HN and luckily they were sympathetic and fixed the issue. If I hadn't have been able to get my account in good standing and I was forced to start over with a new Google account, I would have switched to an iPhone. Sometimes I wonder if I should have switched anyway.

akimball 8y ago
Not an improvement.

dabockster 8y ago

> even a well-intentioned agent doesn’t get the same answer from the “security department” twice So you've gotten agents fired? Or does the security department flip flop with a different answer each time? I've thankfully never had to deal with Google support, so I'm curious about your experiences.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
monochromatic 8y ago
Calling it support is too generous. If Google’s automated systems can’t help you, you’re entering a world of pain.

burtonator 8y ago

Google never became evil , it just became senile.

imichael 8y ago

I wonder how it really works. My first thought is to have a dedicated credit card used only to pay for my google services, kept in a drawer at home (and not uses for any other online service) and therefore unlikely (less likely?) to be used fraudulently. But I have three cards known to Google Payments. If any one of them has an issue would Google lock my account? I hope not.

yisiliu 8y ago

> The only suggestion of a solution we’ve been given is that he abandon both his email address and phone number of the past twenty years and start fresh. rofl thanks google you at least showed us you would treat everyone equally, and no exceptions even for your employees