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That is a helpful explanation of Donella's thought process (thank you), but it doesn't really get to the heart of my question: how do you cause a cultural chang

by liber8 8y ago

That is a helpful explanation of Donella's thought process (thank you), but it doesn't really get to the heart of my question: how do you cause a cultural change or mindset change? There are a limited number of ways to have any substantial effect on a bottom-up system like the economy in a free society. You can pass laws forbidding some activity, or offering benefits to try to encourage some activity. You can raise taxes to make an activity prohibitively expensive compared to the desired alternative. You can educate (or propagandize) the population to recognize or believe something. You can conscript people and force them to behave in a certain way (tough in a free society). There aren't too many other options. When we're discussing how to increase growth, it's not really helpful to say that we should ignore one of the primary levers we have to play with, because that lever isn't nearly as powerful as "changing the paradigm". Okay, great, but what specific actions should we take (i.e. what lever should we play with) to change the paradigm, other than the lever we're talking about?

perfmode 8y ago
> how do you cause a cultural change or mindset change? You're right to call this out. It's the most difficult and elusive thing to achieve. However, it has been happening pretty continuously since the dawn of civilization. Thomas Kuhn sat down to study it in the 50's or 60's and published "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." That book is one of the best treatments of this subject area to date. It is the book that popularized the term "paradigm shift." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Re...
- JackFr 8y ago
  So that is, you wait for the gatekeepers to die.
Jtsummers 8y ago
I'm trying to answer your question, and it's hard. Really, though, you have to use all the leverage points (or a subset of them). The point of the list was not: Which of these will achieve the desired external behavior the best? The point is: Which of these will actually alter the system itself so that it doesn't regress when removed? Prohibition didn't eliminate alcohol consumption, it only changed how it was acquired. It made use of a number of the leverage points but fundamentally the US was still a nation of alcohol consumers. Tobacco use has been reduced in the US, but not eliminated, through education and taxes on tobacco products. Education (at least for my generation, now mid-30s) seems to have had a huge impact and actually changed the way it's viewed (so it achieved a paradigm shift). To change the system (and maybe the paradigm) you'll have to use several of them. Raise taxes on the product (#12). Increase information flow about the consequences of tobacco use (#6). Reduce the positive feedback loop of using it by making it "uncool" (#7). Introduce alternatives that provide the chemical fix (nicotine) without (as much of?) the health consequences via patches and gum (#4). To directly attack the paradigm itself, you have to use education and propaganda. Which will have varying effectiveness. For points #1 and #2 to be useful, you either have to be an individual with an open mind and the ability to introspect, or a learning organization. That latter part gets harder and harder the larger the organization becomes. A small team can alter its course more easily than a small business, which is more adaptable than IBM or the US population.
- liber8 8y ago
  Interesting, thanks for the explanation. In your example of what it took to change the system re smoking, you've described the effects of the "levers" that I listed above. In other words, Donella's list is better viewed is descriptive, not prescriptive. Maybe a better way to describe her list would be not as "places to intervene in a system", but lenses through which to view the changes wrought by the levers we have? Anyways, it still seems to me that taxes are one of the primary tools we have to effect change, and the taxes themselves (individually or together with what we then do with the money generated) can fulfill most, if not all, of the categories on Donella's list.
ip26 8y ago
At a policy level? "Diversity" jumps to mind.
philwelch 8y ago
Concrete example of “changing the paradigm” in economic history might be transitioning from an agrarian economy to an industrial economy. Even if you get literally all the details wrong, just doing something like that in the first place can lead to massive improvements, at least until you catch up and run into the constraints of getting the details wrong. (Example: the Soviet Union).

by liber8 8y ago

perfmode 8y ago

> how do you cause a cultural change or mindset change? You're right to call this out. It's the most difficult and elusive thing to achieve. However, it has been happening pretty continuously since the dawn of civilization. Thomas Kuhn sat down to study it in the 50's or 60's and published "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." That book is one of the best treatments of this subject area to date. It is the book that popularized the term "paradigm shift." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Re...

JackFr 8y ago
So that is, you wait for the gatekeepers to die.

Jtsummers 8y ago

I'm trying to answer your question, and it's hard. Really, though, you have to use all the leverage points (or a subset of them). The point of the list was not: Which of these will achieve the desired external behavior the best? The point is: Which of these will actually alter the system itself so that it doesn't regress when removed? Prohibition didn't eliminate alcohol consumption, it only changed how it was acquired. It made use of a number of the leverage points but fundamentally the US was still a nation of alcohol consumers. Tobacco use has been reduced in the US, but not eliminated, through education and taxes on tobacco products. Education (at least for my generation, now mid-30s) seems to have had a huge impact and actually changed the way it's viewed (so it achieved a paradigm shift). To change the system (and maybe the paradigm) you'll have to use several of them. Raise taxes on the product (#12). Increase information flow about the consequences of tobacco use (#6). Reduce the positive feedback loop of using it by making it "uncool" (#7). Introduce alternatives that provide the chemical fix (nicotine) without (as much of?) the health consequences via patches and gum (#4). To directly attack the paradigm itself, you have to use education and propaganda. Which will have varying effectiveness. For points #1 and #2 to be useful, you either have to be an individual with an open mind and the ability to introspect, or a learning organization. That latter part gets harder and harder the larger the organization becomes. A small team can alter its course more easily than a small business, which is more adaptable than IBM or the US population.

liber8 8y ago
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. In your example of what it took to change the system re smoking, you've described the effects of the "levers" that I listed above. In other words, Donella's list is better viewed is descriptive, not prescriptive. Maybe a better way to describe her list would be not as "places to intervene in a system", but lenses through which to view the changes wrought by the levers we have? Anyways, it still seems to me that taxes are one of the primary tools we have to effect change, and the taxes themselves (individually or together with what we then do with the money generated) can fulfill most, if not all, of the categories on Donella's list.

ip26 8y ago

At a policy level? "Diversity" jumps to mind.

philwelch 8y ago

Concrete example of “changing the paradigm” in economic history might be transitioning from an agrarian economy to an industrial economy. Even if you get literally all the details wrong, just doing something like that in the first place can lead to massive improvements, at least until you catch up and run into the constraints of getting the details wrong. (Example: the Soviet Union).