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I don't understand what the big deal is...we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? I don't drink, I haven't done so since my fir

I don't understand what the big deal is...we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? I don't drink, I haven't done so since my first year of uni...it has never been an issue. Might there be a correlation between people who don't drink and being introverted/feeling excluded? This is definitely true in my case (at one time, I had social anxiety...alcohol was a crutch for me) but you just have to get over it and stop thinking that you deserve an exemption. If we make this exception, guess what...the same people are going to complain about being excluded for some other arbitrary reason.

aphextron 8y ago
>I don't understand what the big deal is...we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? Yeah. It’s honestly really annoying. This is a big problem in tech, too, and I’ve seen it lead to a lot of alienation between employees. I don’t think alcohol belongs in any kind of professional setting at all. Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? That’s just as legal as alcohol here.
- ataturk 8y ago
  If you think tech is bad, check POLITICS. They are the biggest drunks by orders of magnitude.
- duaoebg 8y ago
  I once worked at a place with lots of diversity, so no alcohol, beef, or bacon was allowed at official functions. It ended up meaning a number of us started our own private secret social gatherings which excluded those who had these restrictions. I didn’t want to exclude people but I also like bacon burgers with my beer.
  - subjectHarold 8y ago
    I am not sure what diversity has to do with it? As said, I don't drink but does that mean no-one else should be allowed to drink? What is the idea behind that? Just imo: if you don't drink but have a problem with others doing so then there is something wrong with you, not with the people who drink. And speaking from experience, the people who do have a problem with others drinking tend to be motivated by religions that conflict with accepted ideals of liberal democracy (i.e. they look down on people who drink, believe they are unclean/mad/whatever).
    - ellard 8y ago
      It's the difference between a tolerant atmosphere vs a welcoming one. A simple example is that when i'm with mixed company, I speak in English even if everyone i'm currently talking to can speak another language that i'm familiar with. This allows others to listen in and maybe join in the conversation. This is tossed out of the window when i'm speaking to the same folks but in private. Being welcoming means taking the extra step to make others comfortable, even if it means you end up inconveniencing yourself. Having no alcohol is more "welcoming" as it takes into account folks who might be recovering from alcoholism, while inconveniencing folks who casually drink.
      - subjectHarold 8y ago
        Ah, I forgot...the most welcoming environments are ones where things are banned.
        ellard 8y ago
        If you want to look at it that way, sure. Most communities ban certain behaviors to cultivate a welcoming culture for their target audience. Even HN has the guidelines which highly discourages certain posting behaviors to keep comment threads civil.
    - basilgohar 8y ago
      I don't drink alcohol, and I also belong to one of the religions where alcohol is explicitly and strongly forbidden. As such, I avoid, as much as possible, where alcohol is served, which is challenging at times, but I make do. However, I never asked someone not to drink on account of me (though I've definitely given advice to avoid it to people as I would advise anyone to avoid something that is harmful, which I believe alcohol generally to be). My way of dealing with this is to avoid places expressly for the purpose of drinking alcohol (e.g., bars) and to avoid, as much as possible, being the presence of it when it's being drunk. But those are actions I impose on myself, and not others. I fail to see how this is conflicting with the accepted ideals of liberal democracy (which you ascribe to my entire faith, apparently) and how that is a judgment on people, or how what I do or believe concludes that people are unclean/mad/whatever. Having said all of that, if the accommodation were made to offer an alcohol-free alternative to something that otherwise is not, I would overwhelmingly welcome that, as I imagine anyone in the world would overwhelmingly welcome any accommodation to their own choice in beliefs, practices, limitations, or other factors that everyone has to some degree, as long as it were not cause to exclude anyone. One of the differences here is that, by choice, I cannot drink and prefer not to be around alcohol, but I fail to see how a lack of alcohol is an equally discriminating thing. I would argue keeping alcohol out, while maybe less enjoyable for some, would make the environment overall better for most due to the lack of people getting drunk and doing things they otherwise would not do, cost would be significantly reduced, and once again, allowing more people to attend than could otherwise due to the reasons outlined throughout this conversation.
  - tnolet 8y ago
    Why was diversity here the reason for banning this stuff? I would expect the opposite: diverse as in many options, differences and preferences, not in restricting and banning. Was this in US by chance?
    - duaoebg 8y ago
      In the Bay Area. The restrictions were from a mix of Hindu and Muslim. They made official complaints to upper management that effectivly banned the occasional lunch time beers and Friday afternoon drinks. It was one or two beers, it’s not like people were getting belligerent. After the complaints the only sanctioned events were vegetarian restaurants that didn’t serve alcohol.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- subjectHarold 8y ago
  I think the boundary is well-defined (tech companies are not the first companies to hire people): don't drink alcohol at work, don't smoke weed at work (even if it is legal), and don't come to work drunk or high. If it is a social event outside the work place/hours, you can drink but don't get fucked up and vomit in a pint glass. If weed is legal, you can go outside and smoke like tobacco but, again, don't get fucked up and try to hump a pot plant or something. Simple.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- tnolet 8y ago
  Well, this 100% depends on the cultural context. In many countries work and alcohol are fairly normal and not considered an issue. Go to the south of France and get a job there, you’ll see a very interesting take on this topic.
- jstanley 8y ago
  > Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? Yes
  - ams6110 8y ago
    How about smoking a cigarrette?
- darkpuma 8y ago
  > Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? That’s just as legal as alcohol here. Considering it's almost certainly illegal to spark up a cigarette in that same context, since there are laws against smoke indoors almost everywhere, I question whether it actually is "just as legal" for you to spark up a joint. But what I can tell you from my experience in Seattle, if you failed to be discrete about eating a brownie, you'd find yourself hounded by people who wanted some too.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? Sparking up a joint in hotels or university buildings is unlikely, as smoking is already banned indoors. But greater acceptance of sparking up a joint elsewhere may well be coming. When I traveled around Uruguay in the time after marijuana was legalized, I occasionally found that customer-facing people like a bicycle repairman or greengrocer were smoking a joint while serving me.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> I don't understand what the big deal is... "When Lamson tells people that she's sober, they sometimes get uncomfortable, she said, and assume she's judging them if they choose to drink." "Catherine Medici [...] avoids drinks because of medical issues. But refusing a drink at a reception sometimes leads to questions, which means disclosing her condition." "...she didn't want people to assume that because she was without a drink, she might be pregnant. A mentor advised her that people could make that assumption" > we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? "These scholars don't want everyone to become teetotalers, or for conferences to ban alcohol altogether."
- andonisus 8y ago
  The question remains: how is this a big deal? So what if she thinks people are judging her. Acknowledge it, ignore it, and move on with your time. We cannot seek to universally police the behavior of others, but we can control our own reactions to it. If she is uncomfortable with answering questions about why she doesn't wish to drink, she can just respond that she doesn't want to. It really does seem that simple to me.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    These aren't casual social events, they're important industry networking opportunities. Being judged there can negatively impact your career. Also, some of the people mentioned are recovering alcoholics who just want to be able to get a drink of water without having to go up to the bar. All of this is in the article.
    - andonisus 8y ago
      The article speaks about feeling judged, not actually being judged. I am quite certain that no one at these conferences (or at social networking events of any kind which involved alcohol) cares if someone is abstaining from alcohol.
      - eesmith 8y ago
elil17 8y ago
The article isn’t calling for a ban on alcohol. It’s explaining the problems that recovering alcoholics have at academic conferences but it doesn’t suggest a specific solution.
JenBarb 8y ago
>I don't understand what the big deal is...we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? I don't drink, I haven't done so since my first year of uni...it has never been an issue. My experience not drinking in University was different. Occasionally people would get argumentative and angry at me when I said I wasn't having anything to drink that night. Definitely just some bad eggs but it sure didn't make me feel welcome.
- vict00ms 8y ago
  I work with a bunch of mild-mannered, otherwise-polite (mechanical) engineers and I had to stop attending the company holiday parties because of the overt social pressures to drink (that would generally begin after people had tied a few back).
  - JenBarb 8y ago
    I don't blame you. At a work holiday party a few weeks ago I ordered a cider and some got some rude comments because I ordered something with low alcohol content (what?)
    - lurklurk 8y ago
      I love berry ciders, but I’ve heard people saying these are ‘for the girls’, because, well, colorful sweet stuff. The weird pressure exists even for those who drink...
gwbas1c 8y ago
Did you read the article? The person discussed is a recovering alcoholic. She complains that the only way she can get a water is to go to the bar. (I got the impression she was afraid of relapsing.) It's much easier to walk up to the bar and ask for a water if you're someone who's avoided alcohol throughout your life, instead of someone who's a recovering addict, who actively fears a relapse. (And, I'll be honest, when I'm driving, or my stomach is upset, I have no problem ordering a soda water. I don't even try to hide that I'm not drinking. I dealt with enough pressure in my college fraternity that I realized that the only people who care how much I drink are alcoholics.)
- subjectHarold 8y ago
  So what? We have a separate bar for alcoholics? We ban alcohol? What are you saying? Great, I get it, you have empathy...but, ultimately, if you are an alcoholic you can't avoid people drinking alcohol and trying to avoid things generally isn't a long-term sustainable strategy
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Putting a few buckets around the place with ice and bottled water probably isn't too unreasonable. I think most people would appreciate that, not just the recovering alcoholics.
  - eesmith 8y ago
    What gwbas1c is saying is that your question reveals that you did not really understand the linked-to article. Much of what you write is either addressed or irrelevant. You question - twice now - if the proposal or solution to the problem is to ban alcohol. Literally no one in the article says that, including the recovering alcoholic. For example, "These scholars don't want everyone to become teetotalers, or for conferences to ban alcohol altogether. They just want to be able to tackle the social labors of being an academic without the expectation to imbibe." The recovering alcoholic also says she doesn't care if others drink at the conference. You also only focus on the problems of alcoholics, when the article also talks about people with religious and medical reasons for not drinking. For example, if a woman is not drinking, then (as the article points out) some people might assume that she is pregnant. I can totally see how this might influence, say, a hiring decision if the potential employer believes a woman is pregnant so wouldn't be able to teach in the upcoming term. (That would be illegal, but very unlikely to be caught out.) You write "I get it, you have empathy". What these scholars want is for everyone, including you, to have empathy. Quoting from the article: Pearl isn't arguing that there shouldn't be any alcohol-related events, she said. She just wishes people would "be a little more attentive to what kinds of spaces we are creating, and who's being excluded." The closest there is to a demand is the proposal that "not every moment of community would be structured around the consumption of alcohol". Finally, the alcoholic we are talking about has developed long-term sustainable strategies, like "Buddies fetch nonalcoholic drinks so she doesn't have to approach the bar herself."

aphextron 8y ago

>I don't understand what the big deal is...we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? Yeah. It’s honestly really annoying. This is a big problem in tech, too, and I’ve seen it lead to a lot of alienation between employees. I don’t think alcohol belongs in any kind of professional setting at all. Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? That’s just as legal as alcohol here.

ataturk 8y ago
If you think tech is bad, check POLITICS. They are the biggest drunks by orders of magnitude.
duaoebg 8y ago
I once worked at a place with lots of diversity, so no alcohol, beef, or bacon was allowed at official functions. It ended up meaning a number of us started our own private secret social gatherings which excluded those who had these restrictions. I didn’t want to exclude people but I also like bacon burgers with my beer.
- subjectHarold 8y ago
  I am not sure what diversity has to do with it? As said, I don't drink but does that mean no-one else should be allowed to drink? What is the idea behind that? Just imo: if you don't drink but have a problem with others doing so then there is something wrong with you, not with the people who drink. And speaking from experience, the people who do have a problem with others drinking tend to be motivated by religions that conflict with accepted ideals of liberal democracy (i.e. they look down on people who drink, believe they are unclean/mad/whatever).
  - ellard 8y ago
    It's the difference between a tolerant atmosphere vs a welcoming one. A simple example is that when i'm with mixed company, I speak in English even if everyone i'm currently talking to can speak another language that i'm familiar with. This allows others to listen in and maybe join in the conversation. This is tossed out of the window when i'm speaking to the same folks but in private. Being welcoming means taking the extra step to make others comfortable, even if it means you end up inconveniencing yourself. Having no alcohol is more "welcoming" as it takes into account folks who might be recovering from alcoholism, while inconveniencing folks who casually drink.
    - subjectHarold 8y ago
      Ah, I forgot...the most welcoming environments are ones where things are banned.
      - ellard 8y ago
        If you want to look at it that way, sure. Most communities ban certain behaviors to cultivate a welcoming culture for their target audience. Even HN has the guidelines which highly discourages certain posting behaviors to keep comment threads civil.
  - basilgohar 8y ago
    I don't drink alcohol, and I also belong to one of the religions where alcohol is explicitly and strongly forbidden. As such, I avoid, as much as possible, where alcohol is served, which is challenging at times, but I make do. However, I never asked someone not to drink on account of me (though I've definitely given advice to avoid it to people as I would advise anyone to avoid something that is harmful, which I believe alcohol generally to be). My way of dealing with this is to avoid places expressly for the purpose of drinking alcohol (e.g., bars) and to avoid, as much as possible, being the presence of it when it's being drunk. But those are actions I impose on myself, and not others. I fail to see how this is conflicting with the accepted ideals of liberal democracy (which you ascribe to my entire faith, apparently) and how that is a judgment on people, or how what I do or believe concludes that people are unclean/mad/whatever. Having said all of that, if the accommodation were made to offer an alcohol-free alternative to something that otherwise is not, I would overwhelmingly welcome that, as I imagine anyone in the world would overwhelmingly welcome any accommodation to their own choice in beliefs, practices, limitations, or other factors that everyone has to some degree, as long as it were not cause to exclude anyone. One of the differences here is that, by choice, I cannot drink and prefer not to be around alcohol, but I fail to see how a lack of alcohol is an equally discriminating thing. I would argue keeping alcohol out, while maybe less enjoyable for some, would make the environment overall better for most due to the lack of people getting drunk and doing things they otherwise would not do, cost would be significantly reduced, and once again, allowing more people to attend than could otherwise due to the reasons outlined throughout this conversation.
- tnolet 8y ago
  Why was diversity here the reason for banning this stuff? I would expect the opposite: diverse as in many options, differences and preferences, not in restricting and banning. Was this in US by chance?
  - duaoebg 8y ago
    In the Bay Area. The restrictions were from a mix of Hindu and Muslim. They made official complaints to upper management that effectivly banned the occasional lunch time beers and Friday afternoon drinks. It was one or two beers, it’s not like people were getting belligerent. After the complaints the only sanctioned events were vegetarian restaurants that didn’t serve alcohol.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
subjectHarold 8y ago
I think the boundary is well-defined (tech companies are not the first companies to hire people): don't drink alcohol at work, don't smoke weed at work (even if it is legal), and don't come to work drunk or high. If it is a social event outside the work place/hours, you can drink but don't get fucked up and vomit in a pint glass. If weed is legal, you can go outside and smoke like tobacco but, again, don't get fucked up and try to hump a pot plant or something. Simple.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
tnolet 8y ago
Well, this 100% depends on the cultural context. In many countries work and alcohol are fairly normal and not considered an issue. Go to the south of France and get a job there, you’ll see a very interesting take on this topic.
jstanley 8y ago
> Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? Yes
- ams6110 8y ago
  How about smoking a cigarrette?
darkpuma 8y ago
> Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? That’s just as legal as alcohol here. Considering it's almost certainly illegal to spark up a cigarette in that same context, since there are laws against smoke indoors almost everywhere, I question whether it actually is "just as legal" for you to spark up a joint. But what I can tell you from my experience in Seattle, if you failed to be discrete about eating a brownie, you'd find yourself hounded by people who wanted some too.
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
> Should I be able to spark up a joint, too? Sparking up a joint in hotels or university buildings is unlikely, as smoking is already banned indoors. But greater acceptance of sparking up a joint elsewhere may well be coming. When I traveled around Uruguay in the time after marijuana was legalized, I occasionally found that customer-facing people like a bicycle repairman or greengrocer were smoking a joint while serving me.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

> I don't understand what the big deal is... "When Lamson tells people that she's sober, they sometimes get uncomfortable, she said, and assume she's judging them if they choose to drink." "Catherine Medici [...] avoids drinks because of medical issues. But refusing a drink at a reception sometimes leads to questions, which means disclosing her condition." "...she didn't want people to assume that because she was without a drink, she might be pregnant. A mentor advised her that people could make that assumption" > we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? "These scholars don't want everyone to become teetotalers, or for conferences to ban alcohol altogether."

andonisus 8y ago
The question remains: how is this a big deal? So what if she thinks people are judging her. Acknowledge it, ignore it, and move on with your time. We cannot seek to universally police the behavior of others, but we can control our own reactions to it. If she is uncomfortable with answering questions about why she doesn't wish to drink, she can just respond that she doesn't want to. It really does seem that simple to me.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  These aren't casual social events, they're important industry networking opportunities. Being judged there can negatively impact your career. Also, some of the people mentioned are recovering alcoholics who just want to be able to get a drink of water without having to go up to the bar. All of this is in the article.
  - andonisus 8y ago
    The article speaks about feeling judged, not actually being judged. I am quite certain that no one at these conferences (or at social networking events of any kind which involved alcohol) cares if someone is abstaining from alcohol.
    - eesmith 8y ago

elil17 8y ago

The article isn’t calling for a ban on alcohol. It’s explaining the problems that recovering alcoholics have at academic conferences but it doesn’t suggest a specific solution.

JenBarb 8y ago

>I don't understand what the big deal is...we should ban alcohol at these events because some people don't like it? I don't drink, I haven't done so since my first year of uni...it has never been an issue. My experience not drinking in University was different. Occasionally people would get argumentative and angry at me when I said I wasn't having anything to drink that night. Definitely just some bad eggs but it sure didn't make me feel welcome.

vict00ms 8y ago
I work with a bunch of mild-mannered, otherwise-polite (mechanical) engineers and I had to stop attending the company holiday parties because of the overt social pressures to drink (that would generally begin after people had tied a few back).
- JenBarb 8y ago
  I don't blame you. At a work holiday party a few weeks ago I ordered a cider and some got some rude comments because I ordered something with low alcohol content (what?)
  - lurklurk 8y ago
    I love berry ciders, but I’ve heard people saying these are ‘for the girls’, because, well, colorful sweet stuff. The weird pressure exists even for those who drink...

gwbas1c 8y ago

Did you read the article? The person discussed is a recovering alcoholic. She complains that the only way she can get a water is to go to the bar. (I got the impression she was afraid of relapsing.) It's much easier to walk up to the bar and ask for a water if you're someone who's avoided alcohol throughout your life, instead of someone who's a recovering addict, who actively fears a relapse. (And, I'll be honest, when I'm driving, or my stomach is upset, I have no problem ordering a soda water. I don't even try to hide that I'm not drinking. I dealt with enough pressure in my college fraternity that I realized that the only people who care how much I drink are alcoholics.)

subjectHarold 8y ago
So what? We have a separate bar for alcoholics? We ban alcohol? What are you saying? Great, I get it, you have empathy...but, ultimately, if you are an alcoholic you can't avoid people drinking alcohol and trying to avoid things generally isn't a long-term sustainable strategy
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Putting a few buckets around the place with ice and bottled water probably isn't too unreasonable. I think most people would appreciate that, not just the recovering alcoholics.
- eesmith 8y ago
  What gwbas1c is saying is that your question reveals that you did not really understand the linked-to article. Much of what you write is either addressed or irrelevant. You question - twice now - if the proposal or solution to the problem is to ban alcohol. Literally no one in the article says that, including the recovering alcoholic. For example, "These scholars don't want everyone to become teetotalers, or for conferences to ban alcohol altogether. They just want to be able to tackle the social labors of being an academic without the expectation to imbibe." The recovering alcoholic also says she doesn't care if others drink at the conference. You also only focus on the problems of alcoholics, when the article also talks about people with religious and medical reasons for not drinking. For example, if a woman is not drinking, then (as the article points out) some people might assume that she is pregnant. I can totally see how this might influence, say, a hiring decision if the potential employer believes a woman is pregnant so wouldn't be able to teach in the upcoming term. (That would be illegal, but very unlikely to be caught out.) You write "I get it, you have empathy". What these scholars want is for everyone, including you, to have empathy. Quoting from the article: Pearl isn't arguing that there shouldn't be any alcohol-related events, she said. She just wishes people would "be a little more attentive to what kinds of spaces we are creating, and who's being excluded." The closest there is to a demand is the proposal that "not every moment of community would be structured around the consumption of alcohol". Finally, the alcoholic we are talking about has developed long-term sustainable strategies, like "Buddies fetch nonalcoholic drinks so she doesn't have to approach the bar herself."