6 ms·

It’s not made by EU politicians, it’s made by a combination of lawyers, engineers and public administration majors. In many ways the EU is a functioning techno

by jaabe 8y ago

It’s not made by EU politicians, it’s made by a combination of lawyers, engineers and public administration majors. In many ways the EU is a functioning technocracy, and if you ever read through the actual EU documents it shows. They are almost always sound, they are also massively bureaucratic and around 90% longer than necessary, but I’ve never read through something that wasn’t sound. Disclaimer: I haven’t read up on article 13, but I do read (and sit through) a good deal of EU standards and proposals for EU wide Enterprise Architectural principles, and they are never thwarted by politics.

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
>the EU is a functioning technocracy, only it's not really functioning is it?
- sexydefinesher 8y ago
  What do you see as not functioning in the EU?
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    have you ever been to rural Germany, Italy, France or heard of gilets jaunes? Any idea why they might exist? I live in a very poor EU country (out of choice) and most young people fuck off to Germany or France because their home states have no jobs for them. They don't come back either which causes a massive brain drain on these places. Ask the so called middle class in Croatia, Slovakia, Italy what they think of the EU and how well it works for them. Avg salary in these places is 500 to 1000 EUR. And if you visit supermarkets all they have is shit. Literally everything like fresh veg tastes like feet because the good stuff that is locally produced gets exported to the rich places. Companies have 2 production lines making low-grade products (despite being the same brand) for these markets. I'm not an arm-chair bureaucrat who forms his opinion on Google. I actually live in these placed because despite all this shit and poverty the people are actually warm. One more example: thousands of people wiping arses in nursery homes in Germany are working through shady polish, slovenian, etc outsourcing companies where they're stripped of all benefits that a German would enjoy. They work for 500 to 1000 / month (in a high cost country) because their home country has no jobs for them. Then they're being exploited by the rich EU countries. Again I lived in Germany, ran 2 companies there, lived in France (operated 3 businesses), now I live in Eastern EU. As much as I want the EU to succeed I can't be blind to the hypocrisy that I see every day on the streets in my own surrounding.
    - Spooky23 8y ago
      That’s happening everywhere. One of the reasons you have the wacky politics that you have now in the US is that the people left in flyover country aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed. Russia is the most extreme example of the phenomenon.
    - eecc 8y ago
      thank you for posting this
      - spiderfarmer 8y ago
        Shame it's not very informative.
    - Lucadg 8y ago
      Food in Italy is of extremely good quality and variety. I live in Bulgaria and fruits and vegetables are exceptional and extremely cheap. If you refer to supermarket food I may agree.
      - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
        indeed Italy (and France) has some o the best food I ever bought. Germany can't compare even with what's available in a Le'clerc or Carrefour in France. yes I was mainly talking about supermarkets. In my current home I only buy stuff at the wet-market - e.g. directly from farmers because the chains just deliver crap. Even the higher prized items in supermarkets (which cost the same as Germany despite the salary differences) are terrible quality - literally nobody in Italy or France would eat those veg.
        Lucadg 8y ago
        Exactly. The more corporations are involved the worst the food gets.
        ben_w 8y ago
        I wasn’t that impressed with French supermarkets, including Carrefour. Sure, Germany is the home of Lidl, Aldi, and Netto, but Rewe, Edeka, Kaufland, and Biomarkt are all at least as good as what I saw in France. On the other hand, in the UK, Tesco, Waitrose, and Sainsbury’s are all at least as good as their German equivalents; and (beyond the EU) even the worst EU supermarket was better than almost every supermarket I saw in the USA.
- iagooar 8y ago
  You can say anything you want about the EU, but it's perfectly functioning and always has been.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    "Perfectly functioning and always has been"? That is beyond delusion. The EU is co-ruled by an opaque system of non elected bodies, under the table deals, and backroom diplomacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_Euro... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/09/brexit-eu-democratic-britain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/09/brexit... https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/03/23/how-to-address-the-eus-democratic-deficit https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/03/23/how-to-a... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1007/S12290-012-0213-7 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1007/S12290-012-021... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/opinion/the-euros-democratic-deficit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/opinion/the-euros-democra... https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/11/i-was-teenage-europhile-eu-s-sadistic-austerity-and-lack-democracy-changed-my-mind https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/11/i-was-teenage-... https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/books/adults-in-the-room/ https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/books/adults-in-the-room/ And those are mostly official establishment narratives -- if you look at critiques from the left (and libertatians) the picture is much much bleaker.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      > The EU is co-ruled by an opaque system of non elected bodies The EU council (comprising of democratically elected heads of government from the 28 member countries) The EU parliament (comprising of directly elected MEPs from the 28 member countries) The EU commission president, nominated by the council, approved by the parliament, and standing on a ticket to be EU Commission president during the parliamentary elections The EU commissioners, appointed by the democratically elected heads of government from the 28 members Laws are only passed by agreement by the democratically elected council and the democratically elected MEPs.
      - 8y ago
Kiro 8y ago
Please read Article 13 and tell me it's sound. Spoiler: it's not.
deltron3030 8y ago
>but I’ve never read through something that wasn’t sound. Sound in respect to very general interpretations and "common sense". The problem is that general laws can touch topics that are way beyond common sense, the room of interpretation is then just so big that it's like a weapon to take out anybody if you only dig deep enough and frame it as a problem for the common good.

by jaabe 8y ago

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

>the EU is a functioning technocracy, only it's not really functioning is it?

sexydefinesher 8y ago
What do you see as not functioning in the EU?
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  have you ever been to rural Germany, Italy, France or heard of gilets jaunes? Any idea why they might exist? I live in a very poor EU country (out of choice) and most young people fuck off to Germany or France because their home states have no jobs for them. They don't come back either which causes a massive brain drain on these places. Ask the so called middle class in Croatia, Slovakia, Italy what they think of the EU and how well it works for them. Avg salary in these places is 500 to 1000 EUR. And if you visit supermarkets all they have is shit. Literally everything like fresh veg tastes like feet because the good stuff that is locally produced gets exported to the rich places. Companies have 2 production lines making low-grade products (despite being the same brand) for these markets. I'm not an arm-chair bureaucrat who forms his opinion on Google. I actually live in these placed because despite all this shit and poverty the people are actually warm. One more example: thousands of people wiping arses in nursery homes in Germany are working through shady polish, slovenian, etc outsourcing companies where they're stripped of all benefits that a German would enjoy. They work for 500 to 1000 / month (in a high cost country) because their home country has no jobs for them. Then they're being exploited by the rich EU countries. Again I lived in Germany, ran 2 companies there, lived in France (operated 3 businesses), now I live in Eastern EU. As much as I want the EU to succeed I can't be blind to the hypocrisy that I see every day on the streets in my own surrounding.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    That’s happening everywhere. One of the reasons you have the wacky politics that you have now in the US is that the people left in flyover country aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed. Russia is the most extreme example of the phenomenon.
  - eecc 8y ago
    thank you for posting this
    - spiderfarmer 8y ago
      Shame it's not very informative.
  - Lucadg 8y ago
    Food in Italy is of extremely good quality and variety. I live in Bulgaria and fruits and vegetables are exceptional and extremely cheap. If you refer to supermarket food I may agree.
    - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
      indeed Italy (and France) has some o the best food I ever bought. Germany can't compare even with what's available in a Le'clerc or Carrefour in France. yes I was mainly talking about supermarkets. In my current home I only buy stuff at the wet-market - e.g. directly from farmers because the chains just deliver crap. Even the higher prized items in supermarkets (which cost the same as Germany despite the salary differences) are terrible quality - literally nobody in Italy or France would eat those veg.
      - Lucadg 8y ago
        Exactly. The more corporations are involved the worst the food gets.
      - ben_w 8y ago
        I wasn’t that impressed with French supermarkets, including Carrefour. Sure, Germany is the home of Lidl, Aldi, and Netto, but Rewe, Edeka, Kaufland, and Biomarkt are all at least as good as what I saw in France. On the other hand, in the UK, Tesco, Waitrose, and Sainsbury’s are all at least as good as their German equivalents; and (beyond the EU) even the worst EU supermarket was better than almost every supermarket I saw in the USA.
iagooar 8y ago
You can say anything you want about the EU, but it's perfectly functioning and always has been.
- coldtea 8y ago
  "Perfectly functioning and always has been"? That is beyond delusion. The EU is co-ruled by an opaque system of non elected bodies, under the table deals, and backroom diplomacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_Euro... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/09/brexit-eu-democratic-britain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/09/brexit... https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/03/23/how-to-address-the-eus-democratic-deficit https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/03/23/how-to-a... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1007/S12290-012-0213-7 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1007/S12290-012-021... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/opinion/the-euros-democratic-deficit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/opinion/the-euros-democra... https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/11/i-was-teenage-europhile-eu-s-sadistic-austerity-and-lack-democracy-changed-my-mind https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/11/i-was-teenage-... https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/books/adults-in-the-room/ https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/books/adults-in-the-room/ And those are mostly official establishment narratives -- if you look at critiques from the left (and libertatians) the picture is much much bleaker.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    > The EU is co-ruled by an opaque system of non elected bodies The EU council (comprising of democratically elected heads of government from the 28 member countries) The EU parliament (comprising of directly elected MEPs from the 28 member countries) The EU commission president, nominated by the council, approved by the parliament, and standing on a ticket to be EU Commission president during the parliamentary elections The EU commissioners, appointed by the democratically elected heads of government from the 28 members Laws are only passed by agreement by the democratically elected council and the democratically elected MEPs.
    - 8y ago

Kiro 8y ago

Please read Article 13 and tell me it's sound. Spoiler: it's not.

deltron3030 8y ago

>but I’ve never read through something that wasn’t sound. Sound in respect to very general interpretations and "common sense". The problem is that general laws can touch topics that are way beyond common sense, the room of interpretation is then just so big that it's like a weapon to take out anybody if you only dig deep enough and frame it as a problem for the common good.