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So completely torn on this. In the corporate world I completely agree. I feel like a vegetable. I am numb and stare out a window. I enjoy taking long walks

So completely torn on this. In the corporate world I completely agree. I feel like a vegetable. I am numb and stare out a window. I enjoy taking long walks and picking fruit on my corporate neighbor's property. In addition to working for a Fortune 50 company I am also an officer in the army. In the army this idea about bosses is and large organizations is mostly (not completely though) upside down. In the military this can really work for you if you are engaged and your primary leader isn't a criminal. This is perhaps the biggest difference between these worlds, and I cannot put it into words in a way that could possibly relate until you have shared a similar experience yourself. Seeing and living this difference shapes your world perspective more than any other objective quality (there are catastrophic subjective qualities that will shape anybody's world).

tome 8y ago
> I cannot put it into words in a way that could possibly relate until you have shared a similar experience yourself Could you try? This is really interesting!
- austincheney 8y ago
  Bear with me on this... In the corporate space many of the younger people I have worked with feel, to me, extraordinarily fragile. We all have fear and we all make mistakes. Sometimes I would rather shoot myself in the face than point out a minor shortcoming. Sometimes the result is a long series of excuses and justifications (deliberately not listening and having a one way conversation with themselves to you) and on rare occasions the response is immediate hostility. I don't know everything, but I have been in this line of work for 20 years and I do feel justified in thinking I might be able to offer advice or technical guidance to somebody who has been doing it for 6 months or less. Older developers I have worked with in the corporate world tend to be a bit rigid and stuck in their ways, which is completely expected. Although this is not a surprise it does prove a bit frustrating when it comes to exploring newer technologies or open-mindedness to new approaches. In the military you often don't get a vote upon the technology, the environment, the people you work with, or really anything. You realize you are an adult. You suck it up and try to make the best of it. As crappy as that may at first sound it is a forcing function with some really positive results. You have to be flexible. You have to embrace new things. You have to work with all kinds of people. Confrontation is common in the military. There really is a such thing as positive confrontations. Positive confrontations are necessary to develop people. This exists in the corporate world as well, but its generally hidden behind directors and senior managers where tiny contributors like me don't see it. Ownership of work is vital to motivation. The military has figured this out. Some of the corporate world has figured this out, but usually not. People have to be allowed to fail in order to feel the pressure to grow. Let's not forget corporate employees are adults and they need mentorship not helicopter parents. As an example tell a JavaScript developer they can't use their favorite framework. Tell them they actually have to write original code and solve problems. Oh, the crying...
  - tome 8y ago
    Thanks. You said > In the army this idea about bosses is and large organizations is mostly (not completely though) upside down. In the military this can really work for you if you are engaged and your primary leader isn't a criminal. Does that means that in the military people lower in the ranks are much more self-motivated and self-directed?
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      The cynic in me would say obedient rather than self-motivated.
    - austincheney 8y ago
      Yes, when the proper leadership is in place. If you are given a large amount time with no responsibility and no structure it comes down to an individual's personality like anywhere else. The minimal expectation is that low ranking service members have the proper pieces in place to make good decisions. When they make bad decisions it is them plus their boss (and sometimes the boss's boss) that gets destroyed. This puts pressure on the boss to ensure their people are well informed. In the corporate world if a contributor fails horribly you simply fire them and wash your hands of it. It is highly unlikely the boss will receive legal prosecution for the contributor's failures even those failures result from a lack of governance or proper policy.
  - simagule 8y ago
    One of the latest joe rogan podcasts had a great guest on who goes into explaining why the younger generation are more brittle. as they are not given the chance to take risks and learn from them growing up resulting in them being scared to take then. Worth a liste https://youtu.be/FG6HbWw2RF4 https://youtu.be/FG6HbWw2RF4
  - tboyd47 8y ago
    > In the military you often don't get a vote upon the technology, the environment, the people you work with, or really anything. You realize you are an adult. You suck it up and try to make the best of it. As crappy as that may at first sound it is a forcing function with some really positive results. You have to be flexible. You have to embrace new things. You have to work with all kinds of people. Sometimes new things very clearly flashes in the pan, and sometimes people are clearly on their way out the door, and applying a forcing function doesn't change that, though. That dev who "cried" and was "hostile" for not being able to use a framework, was it really hostility or just frustration? Just something to think about! :) Thanks for sharing. EDIT: I removed most of my reply because it really was too much.
pram 8y ago
Perhaps from your perspective as an officer, but being enlisted was a kafkaesque nightmare. The management structure from the lowest NCO up was typically completely inflexible and almost antagonistic at times. You are committed to the most mind numbing busywork (like shoveling snow or shredding a ton of paper) that there’s absolutely no way to gain satisfaction from. Self actualization is pretty much an impossibility. Being a numb vegetable is spending 16 hour days in Iraq guarding a fence. Nothing in the civilian/corporate world comes close. Also you can always quit ;D

tome 8y ago

> I cannot put it into words in a way that could possibly relate until you have shared a similar experience yourself Could you try? This is really interesting!

austincheney 8y ago
Bear with me on this... In the corporate space many of the younger people I have worked with feel, to me, extraordinarily fragile. We all have fear and we all make mistakes. Sometimes I would rather shoot myself in the face than point out a minor shortcoming. Sometimes the result is a long series of excuses and justifications (deliberately not listening and having a one way conversation with themselves to you) and on rare occasions the response is immediate hostility. I don't know everything, but I have been in this line of work for 20 years and I do feel justified in thinking I might be able to offer advice or technical guidance to somebody who has been doing it for 6 months or less. Older developers I have worked with in the corporate world tend to be a bit rigid and stuck in their ways, which is completely expected. Although this is not a surprise it does prove a bit frustrating when it comes to exploring newer technologies or open-mindedness to new approaches. In the military you often don't get a vote upon the technology, the environment, the people you work with, or really anything. You realize you are an adult. You suck it up and try to make the best of it. As crappy as that may at first sound it is a forcing function with some really positive results. You have to be flexible. You have to embrace new things. You have to work with all kinds of people. Confrontation is common in the military. There really is a such thing as positive confrontations. Positive confrontations are necessary to develop people. This exists in the corporate world as well, but its generally hidden behind directors and senior managers where tiny contributors like me don't see it. Ownership of work is vital to motivation. The military has figured this out. Some of the corporate world has figured this out, but usually not. People have to be allowed to fail in order to feel the pressure to grow. Let's not forget corporate employees are adults and they need mentorship not helicopter parents. As an example tell a JavaScript developer they can't use their favorite framework. Tell them they actually have to write original code and solve problems. Oh, the crying...
- tome 8y ago
  Thanks. You said > In the army this idea about bosses is and large organizations is mostly (not completely though) upside down. In the military this can really work for you if you are engaged and your primary leader isn't a criminal. Does that means that in the military people lower in the ranks are much more self-motivated and self-directed?
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    The cynic in me would say obedient rather than self-motivated.
  - austincheney 8y ago
    Yes, when the proper leadership is in place. If you are given a large amount time with no responsibility and no structure it comes down to an individual's personality like anywhere else. The minimal expectation is that low ranking service members have the proper pieces in place to make good decisions. When they make bad decisions it is them plus their boss (and sometimes the boss's boss) that gets destroyed. This puts pressure on the boss to ensure their people are well informed. In the corporate world if a contributor fails horribly you simply fire them and wash your hands of it. It is highly unlikely the boss will receive legal prosecution for the contributor's failures even those failures result from a lack of governance or proper policy.
- simagule 8y ago
  One of the latest joe rogan podcasts had a great guest on who goes into explaining why the younger generation are more brittle. as they are not given the chance to take risks and learn from them growing up resulting in them being scared to take then. Worth a liste https://youtu.be/FG6HbWw2RF4 https://youtu.be/FG6HbWw2RF4
- tboyd47 8y ago
  > In the military you often don't get a vote upon the technology, the environment, the people you work with, or really anything. You realize you are an adult. You suck it up and try to make the best of it. As crappy as that may at first sound it is a forcing function with some really positive results. You have to be flexible. You have to embrace new things. You have to work with all kinds of people. Sometimes new things very clearly flashes in the pan, and sometimes people are clearly on their way out the door, and applying a forcing function doesn't change that, though. That dev who "cried" and was "hostile" for not being able to use a framework, was it really hostility or just frustration? Just something to think about! :) Thanks for sharing. EDIT: I removed most of my reply because it really was too much.

pram 8y ago

Perhaps from your perspective as an officer, but being enlisted was a kafkaesque nightmare. The management structure from the lowest NCO up was typically completely inflexible and almost antagonistic at times. You are committed to the most mind numbing busywork (like shoveling snow or shredding a ton of paper) that there’s absolutely no way to gain satisfaction from. Self actualization is pretty much an impossibility. Being a numb vegetable is spending 16 hour days in Iraq guarding a fence. Nothing in the civilian/corporate world comes close. Also you can always quit ;D