6 ms·

This is remarkably ignorant of the actual circumstances that lower-class Americans have to deal with, especially when you share almost improbable statistics tha

This is remarkably ignorant of the actual circumstances that lower-class Americans have to deal with, especially when you share almost improbable statistics that are completely out of touch with reality. 30,000 is far from a decent income considering people get gouged on health insurance, which effectively functions as another tax on their post-tax income. When you start adding in the costs of food, internet, phone, utilities etc the end result is much more dire. This is not even counting the fact that Americans work more for less, considering people in Sweden, your example, I guarantee you get far more time off, have more job security and considerably better benefits.

tptacek 8y ago
At $30,000, a family likely qualifies for Medicaid in their state.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  If we use his example of Atlanta, Georgia an income of $30,000 would be over the requirements for Medicaid for quite a lot of families [1] The poorest states it would seem to me are also the ones most stringent with offering Medicaid. [1] https://medicaid.georgia.gov/sites/medicaid.georgia.gov/files/related_files/document/2018_Financial_Limits_revised_2_15_18.pdf https://medicaid.georgia.gov/sites/medicaid.georgia.gov/file...
  - rayiner 8y ago
    I didn't use an example of a family, because a family making $30,000 is not the median. The median family income in Georgia is $68,000: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/Georgia https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/Georgia. This is a city where you can buy a 3BR house bigger than the one I grew up in for a $920/month mortgage: https://www.redfin.com/GA/Kennesaw/3072-Black-Gum-Dr-NW-30152/home/25401395 https://www.redfin.com/GA/Kennesaw/3072-Black-Gum-Dr-NW-3015....
rayiner 8y ago
I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in their career, etc. That's the basic fallacy of the article. We imagine someone with kids making $30,000 and how hard that would be. And then we see that the median income is $30,000, and are shocked to think that somehow half of all people must be in those "dire" financial circumstances. But someone making $30,000 with kids to support is in fact far below the median. The median family income in the U.S. is $73,000. These statistics are not "improbable"--they are fact: https://dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/average_median_income_by_age_2018.png https://dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/average_median_.... Your point about health insurance also contradicts reality. Excluding people covered by Medicare and military health care, 70% of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance. That covers, on average, 86% of premiums for the employee and 75% for dependents. Many Americans don't have health insurance, of course. But the median American does. The person making $30,000 and getting "gouged on health insurance" out of that amount is far below the median. > This is not even counting the fact that Americans work more for less That's simply false. The median income in the U.S. is about 10% higher than Sweden (and much higher than the U.K. or France or Germany). Do Swedes get 36 extra days off each year to compensate? (No they don't.) Disposable income at the median is even higher in the U.S. because Sweden has extremely high tax rates on the middle class. The poor in Sweden, on the other hand, are much better off thanks to those taxes on the Swedish middle class.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  >I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in their career, etc. That's the basic fallacy of the article. We imagine someone with kids making $30,000 and how hard that would be. And then we see that the median income is $30,000, and are shocked to think that somehow half of all people must be in those "dire" financial circumstances. But someone making $30,000 with kids to support is in fact far below the median. The median family income in the U.S. is $73,000. I would certainly hope you would agree that each American in those age groups is going to have experienced different job prospects and different stages of the economy, which is why it can be misleading. For example I would easily make the argument that the average American below the age of 35 would also have considerably more debt than Americans age 35+. This is just one measure of how median income can be entirely misleading. And my arguments against your statistics was more about the fact that you linked to a highly partisan outlet seemingly known for heavily cherry-picking statistics to prove a hard-right bias. >Your point about health insurance also contradicts reality. Excluding people covered by Medicare and military health care, 70% of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance. That covers, on average, 86% of premiums for the employee and 75% for dependents. Many Americans don't have health insurance, of course. But the median American does. The person making $30,000 and getting "gouged on health insurance" out of that amount is far below the median. Premiums are only one half of an equation; with HDHPs even if your employee covers a large amount of the premiums a medical emergency still leaves you stuck with over 6k in debt, something a lot of poor families cannot afford considering how little they have in savings [1] > Do Swedes get 36 extra days off each year to compensate? (No they don't.) Yeah, about that. [2] Sweden gets 34 total days of paid leave per year, guaranteed. America has no such provisions and it is entirely up to the discretion of the company. For developers, we can probably expect to get around ~10-15 days off, plus occasional holidays. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-have-less-than-1000-in-savings-2015-10-06 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-have-less-t... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...
scarface74 8y ago
According to paycheckcity.com, 30K a year is a net income of $2000 a month in GA. Rent - 800 Food - 400 Power/Water/Gas - 300 Internet - $50 Cell - $50 These are all reasonable numbers for Atlanta. It would be a stretch and you should probably have a room mate to give you some breathing room but it can be done. Also if you have roommates, you could afford a car and insurance. My son is living on his own in Atlanta so I know the expenses are accurate. We keep him on our family insurance and we can until he is 26.
- notfromhere 8y ago
  Now imagine this without familial support of any kind.
  - ryanmercer 8y ago
    I don't have to I live it except I gotta help a 66 year old, retired early via disability, parent on top of it in Indy at 33k a year.
- iron0013 8y ago
  "We keep him on our family insurance and we can until he is 26." You really buried the lede. Will you also pay the health insurance for all the other hypothetical Atlanteans that you're claiming can get by on 30k?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Worse case, insurance on the exchange is $440 a month but I would assume someone making $30K has a full time job with group insurance. If not, and since it would be pretax - add $5280 a year.
    - iron0013 8y ago
      I wish that were a safe assumption, but many, many--perhaps most--low-wage workers have jobs that keep them just below the full-time threshold so that the employers do not have to provide insurance. One good way to find our about why it's so difficult to get by on ~$30k is to talk to someone (or multiple people) who make that little. You'll find that the vast majority of the time the fantasy that they blow their money on iphones and drugs evaporates, and the reality that healthcare, housing, childcare, student loan payments, etc are all much more expensive than you've estimated shines through.

tptacek 8y ago

At $30,000, a family likely qualifies for Medicaid in their state.

fzeroracer 8y ago
If we use his example of Atlanta, Georgia an income of $30,000 would be over the requirements for Medicaid for quite a lot of families [1] The poorest states it would seem to me are also the ones most stringent with offering Medicaid. [1] https://medicaid.georgia.gov/sites/medicaid.georgia.gov/files/related_files/document/2018_Financial_Limits_revised_2_15_18.pdf https://medicaid.georgia.gov/sites/medicaid.georgia.gov/file...
- rayiner 8y ago
  I didn't use an example of a family, because a family making $30,000 is not the median. The median family income in Georgia is $68,000: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/Georgia https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/Georgia. This is a city where you can buy a 3BR house bigger than the one I grew up in for a $920/month mortgage: https://www.redfin.com/GA/Kennesaw/3072-Black-Gum-Dr-NW-30152/home/25401395 https://www.redfin.com/GA/Kennesaw/3072-Black-Gum-Dr-NW-3015....

rayiner 8y ago

I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in their career, etc. That's the basic fallacy of the article. We imagine someone with kids making $30,000 and how hard that would be. And then we see that the median income is $30,000, and are shocked to think that somehow half of all people must be in those "dire" financial circumstances. But someone making $30,000 with kids to support is in fact far below the median. The median family income in the U.S. is $73,000. These statistics are not "improbable"--they are fact: https://dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/average_median_income_by_age_2018.png https://dqydj.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/average_median_.... Your point about health insurance also contradicts reality. Excluding people covered by Medicare and military health care, 70% of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance. That covers, on average, 86% of premiums for the employee and 75% for dependents. Many Americans don't have health insurance, of course. But the median American does. The person making $30,000 and getting "gouged on health insurance" out of that amount is far below the median. > This is not even counting the fact that Americans work more for less That's simply false. The median income in the U.S. is about 10% higher than Sweden (and much higher than the U.K. or France or Germany). Do Swedes get 36 extra days off each year to compensate? (No they don't.) Disposable income at the median is even higher in the U.S. because Sweden has extremely high tax rates on the middle class. The poor in Sweden, on the other hand, are much better off thanks to those taxes on the Swedish middle class.

fzeroracer 8y ago
>I'm not disagreeing that there is a "lower class" of Americans that face these circumstances. What I'm disagreeing with is the article's implication that the median American somehow shares this plight. The article ignores a crucial fact: that the "median income" does not represent the "median American." The "median American" makes over $50,000 at age 35+. The "median income" reflects everyone just starting out in their career, etc. That's the basic fallacy of the article. We imagine someone with kids making $30,000 and how hard that would be. And then we see that the median income is $30,000, and are shocked to think that somehow half of all people must be in those "dire" financial circumstances. But someone making $30,000 with kids to support is in fact far below the median. The median family income in the U.S. is $73,000. I would certainly hope you would agree that each American in those age groups is going to have experienced different job prospects and different stages of the economy, which is why it can be misleading. For example I would easily make the argument that the average American below the age of 35 would also have considerably more debt than Americans age 35+. This is just one measure of how median income can be entirely misleading. And my arguments against your statistics was more about the fact that you linked to a highly partisan outlet seemingly known for heavily cherry-picking statistics to prove a hard-right bias. >Your point about health insurance also contradicts reality. Excluding people covered by Medicare and military health care, 70% of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance. That covers, on average, 86% of premiums for the employee and 75% for dependents. Many Americans don't have health insurance, of course. But the median American does. The person making $30,000 and getting "gouged on health insurance" out of that amount is far below the median. Premiums are only one half of an equation; with HDHPs even if your employee covers a large amount of the premiums a medical emergency still leaves you stuck with over 6k in debt, something a lot of poor families cannot afford considering how little they have in savings [1] > Do Swedes get 36 extra days off each year to compensate? (No they don't.) Yeah, about that. [2] Sweden gets 34 total days of paid leave per year, guaranteed. America has no such provisions and it is entirely up to the discretion of the company. For developers, we can probably expect to get around ~10-15 days off, plus occasional holidays. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-have-less-than-1000-in-savings-2015-10-06 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-have-less-t... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

scarface74 8y ago

According to paycheckcity.com, 30K a year is a net income of $2000 a month in GA. Rent - 800 Food - 400 Power/Water/Gas - 300 Internet - $50 Cell - $50 These are all reasonable numbers for Atlanta. It would be a stretch and you should probably have a room mate to give you some breathing room but it can be done. Also if you have roommates, you could afford a car and insurance. My son is living on his own in Atlanta so I know the expenses are accurate. We keep him on our family insurance and we can until he is 26.

notfromhere 8y ago
Now imagine this without familial support of any kind.
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  I don't have to I live it except I gotta help a 66 year old, retired early via disability, parent on top of it in Indy at 33k a year.
iron0013 8y ago
"We keep him on our family insurance and we can until he is 26." You really buried the lede. Will you also pay the health insurance for all the other hypothetical Atlanteans that you're claiming can get by on 30k?
- scarface74 8y ago
  Worse case, insurance on the exchange is $440 a month but I would assume someone making $30K has a full time job with group insurance. If not, and since it would be pretax - add $5280 a year.
  - iron0013 8y ago
    I wish that were a safe assumption, but many, many--perhaps most--low-wage workers have jobs that keep them just below the full-time threshold so that the employers do not have to provide insurance. One good way to find our about why it's so difficult to get by on ~$30k is to talk to someone (or multiple people) who make that little. You'll find that the vast majority of the time the fantasy that they blow their money on iphones and drugs evaporates, and the reality that healthcare, housing, childcare, student loan payments, etc are all much more expensive than you've estimated shines through.