13 ms·

The takeoff and landing stories seem to suggest that the excess thrust and responsive controls of the 767 make it safer than a more sluggish plane, since it can

by kijin 8y ago

The takeoff and landing stories seem to suggest that the excess thrust and responsive controls of the 767 make it safer than a more sluggish plane, since it can fly faster and higher out of a potentially dangerous situation. I wonder if this is just the subjective feeling of a pilot, or if the 767 actually has a record of using its high power and maneuverability to avoid accidents that a 737, for example, would not have been able to avoid. There's a lot of information out there about actual crashes, but not much about narrowly avoided crashes.

quanticle 8y ago
>There's a lot of information out there about actual crashes, but not much about narrowly avoided crashes. Actually the FAA collects information about near-misses too, and records them in the same database that it uses for crashes, the rather unfortunately named Accidents and Incidents Data System (https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:12:::::: https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:12::::::). Navigating the interface takes some doing, but every accident and near-miss is recorded there, sorted by carrier, source airport, destination airport, and aircraft make and model. For example, here (https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:20150117004509I https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT...) is a incident in which a plane caused another plane to abort takeoff by using a taxiway without clearance. Another incident (https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:20130419011239I https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT...) where the plane overran the end of the runway and ended up in the grass. The FAA is really good about collecting data on aviation incidents. Making that data available to the public is another matter.
- bdamm 8y ago
  NASA's aviation close-call database, however, is entirely open to the public. And these reports make for some great reading! https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/search/database.html https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/search/database.html
cameldrv 8y ago
Probably a little bit safer, and much more comfortable for the pilots since the fuselage is so much wider. Airlines care about cost. On cost, the 737 is a huge winner, because it's the most produced airliner ever, by a wide margin. It also has a wide range of sizes, from 103 on a -600 to 188 on a MAX 10. There are lots of pilots that already have a 737 type certificate, there are lots of maintenance shops that can work on them, parts are very available anywhere in the world, and leasing companies like them because they are very common and thus a relatively liquid asset.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Gibbon1 8y ago
Ability to apply excess thrust is a big advantage when hitting wind shear on landing. Or when you lose an engine. I suspect a big advantage of hybrid electric aircraft would be faster throttle control because electrically driven fans would spin up fast.
- kijin 8y ago
  I sometimes hear that it's safer to drive a car with a more powerful engine, other things being equal, because the extra power gives you the ability to accelerate out of a dangerous situation. I've always found that argument a little dubious, because very few people have the training to accelerate safely in such a situation. On the ground, it's usually safer to stop a.s.a.p. When you're flying a fixed-wing aircraft, however, it's not an option to stop where you are. So I guess it can be handy to be able to fly away at a high speed and steep angle!
  - VLM 8y ago
    The story comes from towing, where the vehicles are often only stable in tension (if weight is poorly distributed or strange aerodynamic loads) and you can damp the oscillation by hitting the gas on the tow or the electric brakes on the trailer. It you try to stop the oscillation by hitting the brakes on the tow, you'll end up in a horrible accident. The aerodynamic load of a trailer is enough at highway speeds that its like hitting the trailer brakes already if you panic and take your foot off the gas, so if that didn't cause a recovery you're best off flooring it to get the system in tension which usually eliminates sway, then carefully slow down. People who haven't looked into the mechanical engineering of towing are often confused why 400 pounds of stuff in the pickup bed is no problem but 400 pounds of trailer requires strange elaborate sway bars and brake systems and strange dampeners on the hitch... its a oscillation damper not a total power dissipation issue. In theory a perfect aerodynamic and weight balance tow and trailer would never fishtail at any speed; in practice of course they do.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >400 pounds of trailer requires strange elaborate sway bars and brake systems and strange dampeners on the hitch. You don't need any sway control whatsoever so long as the weight distribution is sane for the speed you want to travel. Look at large boat trailers for examples. They never have sway control unless the owner adds it because they want to load the boat farther back (because their vehicle can't handle the tongue weight). Vehicles not being able to handle the tongue weight of a properly loaded trailer is becoming less of an issue for light loads because asinine CAFE rules force OEMs to push the axles to the very edges of the vehicle increasing wheelbase and reducing rear overhang so your average car or small/midsize SUV today can handle tongue weight a lot better than 15yr ago. >In theory a perfect aerodynamic and weight balance tow and trailer would never fishtail at any speed; in practice of course they do. Only because people are idiots and procrastinate putting the heavy things in the uhaul until the end and then they want to drive 80mph with it. It's not a matter of theory vs reality. There are very few situations where you can't get good weight distribution if you have ten brain cells and ten seconds to plan how you're gonna load stuff.

by kijin 8y ago

quanticle 8y ago

>There's a lot of information out there about actual crashes, but not much about narrowly avoided crashes. Actually the FAA collects information about near-misses too, and records them in the same database that it uses for crashes, the rather unfortunately named Accidents and Incidents Data System (https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:12:::::: https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:12::::::). Navigating the interface takes some doing, but every accident and near-miss is recorded there, sorted by carrier, source airport, destination airport, and aircraft make and model. For example, here (https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:20150117004509I https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT...) is a incident in which a plane caused another plane to abort takeoff by using a taxiway without clearance. Another incident (https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:20130419011239I https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT...) where the plane overran the end of the runway and ended up in the grass. The FAA is really good about collecting data on aviation incidents. Making that data available to the public is another matter.

bdamm 8y ago
NASA's aviation close-call database, however, is entirely open to the public. And these reports make for some great reading! https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/search/database.html https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/search/database.html

cameldrv 8y ago

Probably a little bit safer, and much more comfortable for the pilots since the fuselage is so much wider. Airlines care about cost. On cost, the 737 is a huge winner, because it's the most produced airliner ever, by a wide margin. It also has a wide range of sizes, from 103 on a -600 to 188 on a MAX 10. There are lots of pilots that already have a 737 type certificate, there are lots of maintenance shops that can work on them, parts are very available anywhere in the world, and leasing companies like them because they are very common and thus a relatively liquid asset.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Gibbon1 8y ago

Ability to apply excess thrust is a big advantage when hitting wind shear on landing. Or when you lose an engine. I suspect a big advantage of hybrid electric aircraft would be faster throttle control because electrically driven fans would spin up fast.

kijin 8y ago
I sometimes hear that it's safer to drive a car with a more powerful engine, other things being equal, because the extra power gives you the ability to accelerate out of a dangerous situation. I've always found that argument a little dubious, because very few people have the training to accelerate safely in such a situation. On the ground, it's usually safer to stop a.s.a.p. When you're flying a fixed-wing aircraft, however, it's not an option to stop where you are. So I guess it can be handy to be able to fly away at a high speed and steep angle!
- VLM 8y ago
  The story comes from towing, where the vehicles are often only stable in tension (if weight is poorly distributed or strange aerodynamic loads) and you can damp the oscillation by hitting the gas on the tow or the electric brakes on the trailer. It you try to stop the oscillation by hitting the brakes on the tow, you'll end up in a horrible accident. The aerodynamic load of a trailer is enough at highway speeds that its like hitting the trailer brakes already if you panic and take your foot off the gas, so if that didn't cause a recovery you're best off flooring it to get the system in tension which usually eliminates sway, then carefully slow down. People who haven't looked into the mechanical engineering of towing are often confused why 400 pounds of stuff in the pickup bed is no problem but 400 pounds of trailer requires strange elaborate sway bars and brake systems and strange dampeners on the hitch... its a oscillation damper not a total power dissipation issue. In theory a perfect aerodynamic and weight balance tow and trailer would never fishtail at any speed; in practice of course they do.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >400 pounds of trailer requires strange elaborate sway bars and brake systems and strange dampeners on the hitch. You don't need any sway control whatsoever so long as the weight distribution is sane for the speed you want to travel. Look at large boat trailers for examples. They never have sway control unless the owner adds it because they want to load the boat farther back (because their vehicle can't handle the tongue weight). Vehicles not being able to handle the tongue weight of a properly loaded trailer is becoming less of an issue for light loads because asinine CAFE rules force OEMs to push the axles to the very edges of the vehicle increasing wheelbase and reducing rear overhang so your average car or small/midsize SUV today can handle tongue weight a lot better than 15yr ago. >In theory a perfect aerodynamic and weight balance tow and trailer would never fishtail at any speed; in practice of course they do. Only because people are idiots and procrastinate putting the heavy things in the uhaul until the end and then they want to drive 80mph with it. It's not a matter of theory vs reality. There are very few situations where you can't get good weight distribution if you have ten brain cells and ten seconds to plan how you're gonna load stuff.