5 ms·

I don’t believe them, and I’m no longer interested in giving the industry more chances. ISP’s need regulation, nothing else will stick for long.

criddell 8y ago
I think it's nuts that your video rental records are better protected than your phone records and ISP records. Maybe a future administration will rebuild the anti trust departments and they will start to break apart companies like Facebook, Alphabet, and Verizon.
- xoa 8y ago
  >companies like Facebook, Alphabet, and Verizon It may well be worth applying far stronger anti-trust to all of those, but I still think it's a mistake to lump together some companies that are merely big and have network effects with a company that has both government granted and natural monopolies on limited physical infrastructure. Given the massive backlash in just the last year against Facebook, and competitors growing vs Alphabet, it is at least arguable that it's too early for drastic steps before seeing what happens. There have been other big tech players that nevertheless got displaced over a decade or two (Xerox, IBM say). And even if they do need remedies, those may well be different remedies then what would be appropriate for Verizon (GDPR-style for example, transparency and control for people over data). There is in fact only so much available usable EM spectrum, or rights of way for cables. It's a different class of problem with different solutions and tradeoffs. I just worry that if you lump too disparate things together it'll become an easy defense for the worst of them, and we'll end up with a situation where the likes of Verizon or Comcast or AT&T or whomever refer to themselves as part of the "Google/Facebook" group and then point to Bing and claim anti-trust is overblown. Also, reducing the most end point monopolies could have ripple effects up the stack, if everyone had content neutral symmetric WAN links closer to LAN speeds again it could significant aid decentralization, at least for the initial growth stages.
  - anderskaseorg 8y ago
    A network effect _is_ a kind of monopoly, and this monopoly power can be abused like any other. It’s harder to compete with Facebook than it would be in an idealized free market because there are only so many different platforms a user will be willing to use to keep in touch with their friends. This fact alone doesn’t automatically make Facebook evil, but does mean it deserves an appropriate level of scrutiny and regulatory oversight like companies with other kinds of monopoly power, even if the details differ.
    - Atheros 8y ago
      You're describing a "common carrier". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier#Telecommunications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier#Telecommunicati...
  - mtgx 8y ago
    The FTC staff had already recommended antitrust action against Google over its abuses back in 2012 but Obama killed the investigation to save them. Google was smaller back then and it was also before the EU had 3 antitrust cases against it. I fail to see how Alphabet is in a better position now. And Facebook should have never been allowed to buy WhatsApp and Instagram. It was already big enough at the time.
  - criddell 8y ago
    Merely big is a problem all by itself, IMHO. That's more a side effect of the lack of regulations around political spending by corporations but it's still a problem. Aside from political influence, any company that's too big to fail is probably just too big.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  It's much easier to change your search engine than your ISP.
  - rjf72 8y ago
    Indeed but when you change your ISP you are generally completely disconnected from them. Changing your search engine is just the first in a lengthy series of steps required to separate yourself from Google's data harvesting capabilities. This is why it's reasonable to declare them a monopoly. Taking just Google Analytics as an example. A quick search [1] indicated that, as of 2015, around 6,950 of the top 10,000 sites by traffic use it, with 546,000 of the top million using it. I'd expect those numbers have only increased. And their analytics service is just one branch of their extremely long reach outside of their search engine. You can get away from Google search, but getting away from Google is an entirely different issue. [1] - https://marketingland.com/as-google-analytics-turns-10-we-ask-how-many-websites-use-it-151892 https://marketingland.com/as-google-analytics-turns-10-we-as...
    - cosmie 8y ago
      And those are just the ones that make it explicit. It's also pretty easy to mask usage of GA via a reverse proxy[1], or indirectly use GA via services such as Segment[2]. While both do create a degree of separation between your device and Google's servers, it still underscores your point of getting away from Google entirely being far more difficult than just avoiding Search. [1] https://medium.freecodecamp.org/save-your-analytics-from-content-blockers-7ee08c6ec7ee https://medium.freecodecamp.org/save-your-analytics-from-con... [2] https://segment.com/ https://segment.com/
  - mtgx 8y ago
    It's easier to change your ISP - even in the US - than it is for your data not to land in Google's or Facebook possession somehow whether it's through web site tracking, its own services, or partnerships with hardware manufacturers and other data companies.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
- 50656E6973 8y ago
  >Maybe a future administration will rebuild the anti trust departments and they will start to break apart companies like Facebook, Alphabet, and Verizon. Zuckerberg 2020
- pessimizer 8y ago
  > I think it's nuts that your video rental records are better protected than your phone records and ISP records. Librarians have shared ethical standards, and concern for people other than themselves. Engineers don't. The closest they get are safety standards. So things that overlap with what librarians do have had constant pushback on privacy protection issues.
  - JadeNB 8y ago
    > Librarians have shared ethical standards, and concern for people other than themselves. Engineers don't. The closest they get are safety standards. I think at least this needs to say "the engineering profession" or whatever (as opposed to just "engineers"). While engineer's disease is very real, saying that engineers don't have concern for others seems an overreach.
- delfinom 8y ago
  How the hell do you break up Facebook? Make it worthless and unusable by forcing it to be regional?
  - criddell 8y ago
    A good start would be to spin off Instagram, Whatsapp, and other big acquisitions into separate companies. Those purchases probably shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  This is a question everyone should propose to their representatives if anything is to be done about data privacy in the US.
  - criddell 8y ago
    I think the video rental privacy law came into being because of the rental records of a politician were leaked and he had been watching [clutches pearls] porn.
dev_dull 8y ago
Don’t you see yet? It’s regulation that’s giving ISPs so much power.
- moate 8y ago
  I'll bite: what's your solution then? How will deregulating the market allow more ISPs to pop up and become competitive?

criddell 8y ago

I think it's nuts that your video rental records are better protected than your phone records and ISP records. Maybe a future administration will rebuild the anti trust departments and they will start to break apart companies like Facebook, Alphabet, and Verizon.

xoa 8y ago
>companies like Facebook, Alphabet, and Verizon It may well be worth applying far stronger anti-trust to all of those, but I still think it's a mistake to lump together some companies that are merely big and have network effects with a company that has both government granted and natural monopolies on limited physical infrastructure. Given the massive backlash in just the last year against Facebook, and competitors growing vs Alphabet, it is at least arguable that it's too early for drastic steps before seeing what happens. There have been other big tech players that nevertheless got displaced over a decade or two (Xerox, IBM say). And even if they do need remedies, those may well be different remedies then what would be appropriate for Verizon (GDPR-style for example, transparency and control for people over data). There is in fact only so much available usable EM spectrum, or rights of way for cables. It's a different class of problem with different solutions and tradeoffs. I just worry that if you lump too disparate things together it'll become an easy defense for the worst of them, and we'll end up with a situation where the likes of Verizon or Comcast or AT&T or whomever refer to themselves as part of the "Google/Facebook" group and then point to Bing and claim anti-trust is overblown. Also, reducing the most end point monopolies could have ripple effects up the stack, if everyone had content neutral symmetric WAN links closer to LAN speeds again it could significant aid decentralization, at least for the initial growth stages.
- anderskaseorg 8y ago
  A network effect _is_ a kind of monopoly, and this monopoly power can be abused like any other. It’s harder to compete with Facebook than it would be in an idealized free market because there are only so many different platforms a user will be willing to use to keep in touch with their friends. This fact alone doesn’t automatically make Facebook evil, but does mean it deserves an appropriate level of scrutiny and regulatory oversight like companies with other kinds of monopoly power, even if the details differ.
  - Atheros 8y ago
    You're describing a "common carrier". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier#Telecommunications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier#Telecommunicati...
- mtgx 8y ago
  The FTC staff had already recommended antitrust action against Google over its abuses back in 2012 but Obama killed the investigation to save them. Google was smaller back then and it was also before the EU had 3 antitrust cases against it. I fail to see how Alphabet is in a better position now. And Facebook should have never been allowed to buy WhatsApp and Instagram. It was already big enough at the time.
- criddell 8y ago
  Merely big is a problem all by itself, IMHO. That's more a side effect of the lack of regulations around political spending by corporations but it's still a problem. Aside from political influence, any company that's too big to fail is probably just too big.
jogjayr 8y ago
It's much easier to change your search engine than your ISP.
- rjf72 8y ago
  Indeed but when you change your ISP you are generally completely disconnected from them. Changing your search engine is just the first in a lengthy series of steps required to separate yourself from Google's data harvesting capabilities. This is why it's reasonable to declare them a monopoly. Taking just Google Analytics as an example. A quick search [1] indicated that, as of 2015, around 6,950 of the top 10,000 sites by traffic use it, with 546,000 of the top million using it. I'd expect those numbers have only increased. And their analytics service is just one branch of their extremely long reach outside of their search engine. You can get away from Google search, but getting away from Google is an entirely different issue. [1] - https://marketingland.com/as-google-analytics-turns-10-we-ask-how-many-websites-use-it-151892 https://marketingland.com/as-google-analytics-turns-10-we-as...
  - cosmie 8y ago
    And those are just the ones that make it explicit. It's also pretty easy to mask usage of GA via a reverse proxy[1], or indirectly use GA via services such as Segment[2]. While both do create a degree of separation between your device and Google's servers, it still underscores your point of getting away from Google entirely being far more difficult than just avoiding Search. [1] https://medium.freecodecamp.org/save-your-analytics-from-content-blockers-7ee08c6ec7ee https://medium.freecodecamp.org/save-your-analytics-from-con... [2] https://segment.com/ https://segment.com/
- mtgx 8y ago
  It's easier to change your ISP - even in the US - than it is for your data not to land in Google's or Facebook possession somehow whether it's through web site tracking, its own services, or partnerships with hardware manufacturers and other data companies.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
50656E6973 8y ago
>Maybe a future administration will rebuild the anti trust departments and they will start to break apart companies like Facebook, Alphabet, and Verizon. Zuckerberg 2020
pessimizer 8y ago
> I think it's nuts that your video rental records are better protected than your phone records and ISP records. Librarians have shared ethical standards, and concern for people other than themselves. Engineers don't. The closest they get are safety standards. So things that overlap with what librarians do have had constant pushback on privacy protection issues.
- JadeNB 8y ago
  > Librarians have shared ethical standards, and concern for people other than themselves. Engineers don't. The closest they get are safety standards. I think at least this needs to say "the engineering profession" or whatever (as opposed to just "engineers"). While engineer's disease is very real, saying that engineers don't have concern for others seems an overreach.
delfinom 8y ago
How the hell do you break up Facebook? Make it worthless and unusable by forcing it to be regional?
- criddell 8y ago
  A good start would be to spin off Instagram, Whatsapp, and other big acquisitions into separate companies. Those purchases probably shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
This is a question everyone should propose to their representatives if anything is to be done about data privacy in the US.
- criddell 8y ago
  I think the video rental privacy law came into being because of the rental records of a politician were leaked and he had been watching [clutches pearls] porn.

dev_dull 8y ago

Don’t you see yet? It’s regulation that’s giving ISPs so much power.

moate 8y ago
I'll bite: what's your solution then? How will deregulating the market allow more ISPs to pop up and become competitive?