4 ms·

This isn't quite true for many of the big cities of interest. There was an active high-modernist effort in the ~70s to destroy the walkable, transitable, livabl

This isn't quite true for many of the big cities of interest. There was an active high-modernist effort in the ~70s to destroy the walkable, transitable, livable parts of many American cities and cut freeways across them like big ugly neighborhood-destroying scars. Even transit wastelands like LA had an actual urban core (that they're now rebuilding), as well as a relatively extensive network of streetcars.

bsder 8y ago
> cut freeways across them like big ugly neighborhood-destroying scars. Not like. The goal was to destroy neighborhoods--mostly lower socio-economic areas in order to displace the undesirable people away from land that was beginning to appreciate in value. Freeways are located in very specific spots--close enough to the rich areas to be useful but far enough into the poor areas in order to minimize cost/maximize displacement.
dba7dba 8y ago
Los Angeles area had very advanced light railway system including Los Angeles Railway and Pacific Electric Railway Company up until 1960s. Check the map of Pacific Electric Railway Company, and you can see a railway running on the beach from Hermosa Beach up to Santa Monica. The famous Venice Beach Bike Path was originally what the Pacific Electric Railway Company rail used to be. Can you imagine light rails ON the beach in SoCal? All the rails were torn up after lobbying by oil/tire companies. :(
- crucini 8y ago
  I've heard that story plenty of times, but I have my doubts, which increase over time. I think people simply didn't like streetcars once buses were available. I think streetcars were seen as a horrible, dangerous, inconvenient technology with massive infrastructure costs. The first crack in my belief was a comment by a former Baltimore fire chief (I think) who had worked as a streetcar and bus driver earlier. He talked about how scary it was to operate a streetcar with its very poor braking, and how during the transition period every operator was jumping at the chance to become a bus driver. I'm sure there's a grain of truth in there, about lobbying - but was it really the decisive factor? Could Amazon lobby and get Ebay shut down? Did landline phones fade away because of lobbying from the cellular industry? Streetcars were a very cool idea but unfortunately motor buses were better in every objective way.
  - zapita 8y ago
    > I'm sure there's a grain of truth in there, about lobbying - but was it really the decisive factor? Could Amazon lobby and get Ebay shut down? Did landline phones fade away because of lobbying from the cellular industry? Streetcar companies were bought up by GM proxy companies and dismantled. Lobbying had nothing to do with it.
    - cannonedhamster 8y ago
      I mean this is covered in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". GM also tried to destroy Toon Town.
  - romwell 8y ago
    >I've heard that story plenty of times, but I have my doubts, It's not a story, it's a goddamn historical fact[1]. >I'm sure there's a grain of truth in there, about lobbying - but was it really the decisive factor? Of course not just lobbying, but also immense loads of corruption and monopoly practices[1]. >Streetcars were a very cool idea but unfortunately motor buses were better in every objective way. Yeah, that's why streetcars in Europe were all replaced by buses just like the were in the US, and nobody builds "light rail" (read: streetcar systems) anymore anywhere. Oh wait, exactly the opposite is true, because, well, street cars work, and[1]. The real reason you don't see streetcars is that the benefits of a public transit system are externalities[2], and so they must be funded by the government. Streetcars were never simply not funded by the government in the way highways are funded -- because of things like [1] -- and so they were destroyed by companies that made [1] happen. You're welcome. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
    - opo 8y ago
      The podcast 99% Invisible had a story on "The Great Red Car Conspiracy" which covers this. As with most issues, it looks like it is more complex (and interesting) than first appears. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-70-the-great-red-car-conspiracy/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-70-the-great-...

bsder 8y ago

> cut freeways across them like big ugly neighborhood-destroying scars. Not like. The goal was to destroy neighborhoods--mostly lower socio-economic areas in order to displace the undesirable people away from land that was beginning to appreciate in value. Freeways are located in very specific spots--close enough to the rich areas to be useful but far enough into the poor areas in order to minimize cost/maximize displacement.

dba7dba 8y ago

Los Angeles area had very advanced light railway system including Los Angeles Railway and Pacific Electric Railway Company up until 1960s. Check the map of Pacific Electric Railway Company, and you can see a railway running on the beach from Hermosa Beach up to Santa Monica. The famous Venice Beach Bike Path was originally what the Pacific Electric Railway Company rail used to be. Can you imagine light rails ON the beach in SoCal? All the rails were torn up after lobbying by oil/tire companies. :(

crucini 8y ago
I've heard that story plenty of times, but I have my doubts, which increase over time. I think people simply didn't like streetcars once buses were available. I think streetcars were seen as a horrible, dangerous, inconvenient technology with massive infrastructure costs. The first crack in my belief was a comment by a former Baltimore fire chief (I think) who had worked as a streetcar and bus driver earlier. He talked about how scary it was to operate a streetcar with its very poor braking, and how during the transition period every operator was jumping at the chance to become a bus driver. I'm sure there's a grain of truth in there, about lobbying - but was it really the decisive factor? Could Amazon lobby and get Ebay shut down? Did landline phones fade away because of lobbying from the cellular industry? Streetcars were a very cool idea but unfortunately motor buses were better in every objective way.
- zapita 8y ago
  > I'm sure there's a grain of truth in there, about lobbying - but was it really the decisive factor? Could Amazon lobby and get Ebay shut down? Did landline phones fade away because of lobbying from the cellular industry? Streetcar companies were bought up by GM proxy companies and dismantled. Lobbying had nothing to do with it.
  - cannonedhamster 8y ago
    I mean this is covered in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". GM also tried to destroy Toon Town.
- romwell 8y ago
  >I've heard that story plenty of times, but I have my doubts, It's not a story, it's a goddamn historical fact[1]. >I'm sure there's a grain of truth in there, about lobbying - but was it really the decisive factor? Of course not just lobbying, but also immense loads of corruption and monopoly practices[1]. >Streetcars were a very cool idea but unfortunately motor buses were better in every objective way. Yeah, that's why streetcars in Europe were all replaced by buses just like the were in the US, and nobody builds "light rail" (read: streetcar systems) anymore anywhere. Oh wait, exactly the opposite is true, because, well, street cars work, and[1]. The real reason you don't see streetcars is that the benefits of a public transit system are externalities[2], and so they must be funded by the government. Streetcars were never simply not funded by the government in the way highways are funded -- because of things like [1] -- and so they were destroyed by companies that made [1] happen. You're welcome. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
  - opo 8y ago
    The podcast 99% Invisible had a story on "The Great Red Car Conspiracy" which covers this. As with most issues, it looks like it is more complex (and interesting) than first appears. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-70-the-great-red-car-conspiracy/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-70-the-great-...